Donors blackmail on gays bad

Andrew M. Mwenda Since Ndorwa West MP David Bahati introduced a bill to kill homosexuals, I have become wary of the behaviour of Uganda’s international donors. They have threatened to cut off aid if the government goes ahead with the bill. This way, they are literally using their money to blackmail government to respect gay rights. Yet this approach, although driven by good intentions, is actually counterproductive.

Those hostile to homosexuals argue that gays are promoted by the West with money to undermine African culture although they have not produced even a scintilla of evidence to support this claim. But by threatening aid cuts if the bill is passed, donors are inadvertently proving the purveyors of this argument right. Donors should learn that cultural change should be a gradual internal process. To use force to make people change their attitudes would require a high amount of coercion that is certainly undesirable. Intimidation and blackmail are not effective weapons against cultural bigotry; open debate is.

In threatening aid cuts, I suspect Western leaders are actually addressing their constituents. Their electorates see the bill as a barbaric move to suppress a fundamental right. However, donors need to be careful not to be seen to be arm-twisting the government. The biggest challenge gays and lesbians face in Uganda is not state law (however draconian) but deeply held cultural bigotry by the society.

Therefore, a democratic government would find it difficult to resist popular pressure to hang homosexuals. Multitudes of Ugandans are homophobic and would not hesitate to sanction genocide against gays. To secure attitudinal change through force would require unprecedented violence. Our challenge is how to foster openness and tolerance. This can only be achieved through open debate.

This is why although Bahati is subjectively homophobic, he is objectively an ally of gays. By introducing his bill with provisions to kill gays, he has inadvertently opened debate on a subject that has been taboo in Uganda. In the process, he has given gays and progressive intellectuals an opportunity and a platform to enlighten Ugandans about sexual diversity and expose the fallacies that inform homophobia.

Since I wrote a column criticising Bahati, I have been impressed by the number of young Ugandans who have written to me saying the debate has made them rethink their prejudice. There have been critics as well and others who wrote calling me names. I had expected worse. My column also generated fierce debate on our website with the anti-homosexual side suffering a devastating but delicious intellectual beating.

A particular problem with Ugandan society is its low levels of openness. As evolutionary psychologist Geoffrey Miller has written, openness to experience implies curiosity, novelty seeking, broad-mindedness, interest in culture, ideas and aesthetics. Our society exhibits low levels of openness partly because of the influence of tradition.

But as our society modernises and urbanises, a new cultural sophistication is consolidating. For example, in the current debate on Bahati’s bill, the most virulent anti-gay crusaders are largely (although not entirely) from rural areas, born in peasant families, are less travelled and are not widely read. So they lack exposure to diversity. The opposite applies to most of the people who are tolerant of gays.

It is easy to tell open-minded people; they tend to seek complexity and novelty, they readily accept innovations and changes – and as Miller writes, they prefer grand new visions to mundane, predictable ruts. This sounds like a personality profile of Charles Onyango-Obbo. You cannot catch a person of his attitude and calibre in a homo-bashing rant.

People who are low on openness tend to seek simplicity and predictability; they resist change and respect tradition. They are often more conservative, close-minded, conventional and authoritarian. They follow the established cults as did their grand parents. Even in heterosexual relationships, they reject creative acts that increase intimacy. In the name of tradition, they support female genital mutilation, practice polygamy, beat their wives and want to decide for their children.

The Ugandan education system adds to the problem. At home, children are taught to obey their parents without question. In school, Students are taught to respect every opinion in a book or from the teacher instead of questioning it. That is why it is boring and frustrating reading opinions in our newspapers or listening to radio talk-shows. There is little attempt to add value to existing dogmas and beliefs.

Yet life is more complex than the “facts” that stare us in the face suggest. A person from mars visiting a small poverty stricken village in Karamoja would find people living close to the Stone Age – sleeping in grass thatched mud-huts, walking naked, cooking in medieval pots and eating from pre-historic wooden bowls. Visiting a high-tech firm in the Silicon Valley, he finds people building rockets that can navigate other planets millions of miles from the earth and yet keep sending pictures of what they observe.

It seems obvious to a casual observer from mars that the people in Karamoja are mentally inferior to those in the Silicon Valley; otherwise how do we explain such fundamental differences? Well the people in Karamoja will be black and the ones in the Silicon Valley will be white. Therefore, on the basis of this hard “evidence”, it is easy to conclude that blacks are inferior to whites in intelligence.

Actually, this “hard evidence” of white intellectual superiority was the basis of slavery, colonialism and other forms of racial injustice visited on the black race. Today, most people know that the factors that shape the economic and social destiny of peoples are varied and diverse; the colour of one’s skin has almost nothing to do with it. The difference in achievements between a worker in Google and a Karimojong cattle-herder may be rooted in the simple accident of history and geography, not their mental abilities.

As we debate Bahati’s bill, we will learn that the factors that shape human sexuality are complex and we should therefore not kill anyone because they are different. We should punish those who sexually molest children and those who rape – not because of their sexual orientation but because they violated some else’s rights while seeking sexual gratification. Happy New Year!

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Mr Mwenda am still not convinced!
written by MABO, January 06, 2010

Mr mwenda thnx for your article,citing number of examples & analogues but frankly am not yet conviced. Wht ever linkages you may attach to wash gayism clean does not convice me bcoz it niether add value to the human race in contrast to all the examples you have given. Mr mwenda to me I believe there is a differnce btn the words "right" & "correct", the gays may be right but in our setting & for the sake of human race they are not correct believe me or not. You may blame the anti gays as being less exposed or tolerant,but all they do is for you & me. Deep in yo heart yu know its just "act good attitude" lest they ostracise you! I doubt if the west have the best family relations to quote abt. For God & my country.

Mwenda the judge
written by juma Kato, January 06, 2010

Its laughable to see Mwenda saying that anti-gays were given an intellectual beating on his forum . I belong to the anti-gay group and I know who beat who . As as a result , Mwenda now thinks that it is wrong for donors to impose their " values " on Ugandans.
Next , Mwenda should try to look beyond his personal fears . There are plenty of well informed , well educated , widely travelled people who oppose homosexuality . As an example , Bahati , who has introduced the bill , and Nsaba Buturo who supports him and most of the Mps who will vote for the bill are actually more educated than Mwenda or Obbo .

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Nothing new
written by Jerry obba, January 06, 2010

Mr Mwenda your article repeats the same accusations labeled against those who don't support homosexuality as being backward and intellectually lacking,i guess next time we shall also defend bestiality in the name of modernity.

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which is which?
written by Joe.k, January 06, 2010

This is a question for MABO and Juma Kato, since both you claim to be homophobic and you also don't mind if the taps of donor dollars were turned off, will it be ok for all gays lesbian to be packed on the plane and air-lifted to say UK, US or Denmark at the expense of leaving your local health unit and school to rot?
MABO and Kato, you seem to be somehow educated for an average Ugandan but lack exposure, and to be honest i used to have the same thinking, but now am travelled and exposured, i have come to see homosexuality in a more accomodative and positive way.

Mwenda is on propaganda again
written by Maazi N.C. Okezue-Umeh, January 06, 2010

I am sorry Mwenda, I am a traditionalist and therefore do not support homosexuality. I also have a Masters degree in Engineering from an American University. Do I fit into your stereotype of the backward uneducated bigots. All the anti-gay university professors, doctors, lawyers, nurses and teachers in Uganda, do they also fit your stereotype. Since you believe that White Man Knows The Best, why not emigrate to the United States or even Sweden, where you and your pal, Mr. Rubin, can be among the "Superior Ba Muzungu". Why criticize the Western Nations who have no respect for African people when you support their Gay Agenda. Why not express outrage that the West are not challenging Gulf Arab States that have more draconian rules...

Mwenda is on propaganda again (Part 2)
written by Maazi N.C. Okezue-Umeh, January 06, 2010

Why not argue that the West should decriminalize polygamy which is derogatorily referred to as "bigamy". Afterall, marriage between consenting Man and 2 consenting Women is a matter of human rights for many Africans. Why not press Germany to decriminalize incest. In 2008,a brother and sister consensual sexual relationship landed two people in Jail over there. If you are ashamed of our fellow Africans, the best thing for you Mr Mwenda is to put in papers to emigrate to Sweden. I have no doubt that the European Gay Peoples Forces will be at the Airport to receive you with garlands and confetti. They may even present you with a blonde blue eyed man as your new "wife" as a gesture of their appreciation for all your nice Gay propaganda

Answering Joe
written by juma Kato, January 06, 2010

Speaking for myself , I am fairly educated . I work for a financial institution in Uganda and I am currently taking a course at a University in the East . So , I dont consider myself as un-informed or not travelled or lack exposure as you allage . I have been to a few Western countries and seen for mayself that even in these countries , homosexuallity is just " tolarated " by most people .

I have no worries about gays leaving . I just wonder if real lesbians and gays would fill a bus if they were to leave Uganda . But maybe , if homosexuality was used as a basis for one to get a visa to UK or Denmark , half of Kampala City would then be gay .

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Mwenda is on propaganda again (Part 3)
written by Maazi N.C. Okezue-Umeh, January 06, 2010

Just to support Juma Kato, as a person who have lived continuously in USA and have spent time in EU nations such as Britain, France and Spain, I can Mwenda that homosexuality is just tolerated over there. Most people over there tend to hold public and private views on homosexuality. Positive views in order to beat laws that forbid what they call "homophobia" and genuine negative views which are expressed behind closed doors or in company of friends. There is a strong resentment by many people in the West towards "over-protected" status that the infinitesimal gay minority enjoy. This over-protected status cost Miss Carlifornia her crown. In fact my exposure to this situtation in the West hardened my views against Gayism.

The Homo sympathiser speaks again!
written by Imhotep, January 06, 2010

It will get much worse before an African Mao, a Yeshua, a Malcolm X even rises up to say enough is enough. Africa is the play ground for the West's evil schemes (Good vs Evil). The Mwendas of this world have been knowingly or unknowingly bought off by the West. They are a disgrace to the mother continent. Gayism is a scheme to see to it that our population is checked, to destroy the African family unit, and the attempt being made here by this newspaper, by this author, is to show that this agenda is winning the day. To the man that despairs quickly, he probably thinks that indeed this is true, but to him that bides his time, he knows when to strike. This newspaper shall have to go with this government. Hotep.

Mr Joe, I belive in my conscious, feel free to follow yours as well
written by MABO, January 06, 2010

Mr Joe,according to you education & exposure/travel shld submerge my conscious? Its true am learnt & traveled & in shanghai right now. But I can't just "swallow/copy" wht I see here(e.g fondling/caress in public,spitting on streets is comon here etc!) in the name of exposure! As I stated,not all wht is right is correct. Why doesn't the west give us chance to evolve or forge our destiny? Contrary to your arguments, there are some western states even in USA tht have not passed the gay bill, are they back ward & not exposed? Why does west gag nazism,cults? Why criminalise perverts,serial,drug dealers,corrupt,conmen(scam), killers,rapists,thieves,dictators(may be they are alo naturally tht way!).

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continued for mr Joe
written by MABO, January 06, 2010

Soon they will argue gay sex edn in sch bcoz they spt edn sector! If you are in uganda now,you know the clandestine gay activities in school esp single sex. I doubt if gayism is a recognised right e.g in UN ? If we are homophobic,its true & its also by nature mark you. I insist gayism is a conspiracy to tame population growth since convetional family planning have failed! Let some of the pro gayism to quote for us known gay practice among own family tree,friend,village etc. Can you mr Joe extend tht gesture to known gays(give your contact) so tht silent gays know where to get a future partner who is tolerant to "them" !

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continued for Mr Joe
written by MABO, January 06, 2010

Soon they(west) will preach to us how bestiality is good,after all its one's animal (goat,cow,pig,horse) so no one is hurt. Just recall how HIV started in west but to date it claims more in third world. The truth is tht careless liberalism & mondernity is wht is going to wipe the human race off the earth.To make matters some of the pro spt gays wth their mouth not their soul unless of course if they are gays them selves;so tht liberal & tolerance mwenda /obbo talks of is superficial to appease the west since they attend their parties/workshops & hyped media "look" tolerant to diseent of views/issues. Had I been a gay i would search for obbo or mwenda's kids! bcoz thts wht pains an africab parent( sodomise his/her kids in the name "am born gay"(sic)! For God & my country.

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...
written by Major Adam Kifaliso, January 06, 2010

donors ,sexuality money and lifestyle is what keeps Andrew more independence than our MPs possibly the top leaders , Make sure you never file for bankrupcy Andrew because one of the pre-conditions to bail you out will sound too normal to attempt , NOT that I experienced the same but I fear for your weaknesses , you are revealing many of late , heheheheheh happy new ! smilies/grin.gif

Mwendas kids ?
written by juma Kato, January 06, 2010

Mabo , what you dont know about Mwenda is that he is the only Mutoro man above 32 who has no wife or a known girl-friend . He has no kids . He was sponsored by some gay Americans to go and live in USA as some kind of student , what he studies is unclear . Mwenda , who claims that travelling leads to learning new things , has lived in Buganda for a longer time than in Toro or USA , but , in one of his interviews , he admitted that he does not know Luganda or understand Buganda culture . He seems to be trying too hard , and too quickly be accepted in the white World . Some would say that Mwenda is white man dipped in chocolate .

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THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED part 1
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 06, 2010

Those opposing homosexuality as Mwenda writes, true, argue that gays are promoted by the West with money to undermine our culture. But then how comes in 1996, the United States of America congress passed the Defense of Marriage Act defining marriage solely as a union between a couple of the opposite sex for all federal purposes and allowing for the non-recognition amongst the states? President Barack Obama himself is opposed to same-sex marriage, although he "supports full civil unions and federal rights for homosexuals. Therefore this signifies that Americans or the Westerners have reasons for not accepting same sex marriages and which Ugandans too could have.

THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED part 1
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 06, 2010

THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED part 2
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 06, 2010

I personally, according to my moral point of view, have no problem ith two adult men of sound mind voluntarily having sex together in privacy. However, issues concerning morality am convinced that the majority will of the people will bind the minority. Last year, in upholding the death penalty, the Supreme Court Uganda (A.G V Susan Kigula) based its ruling on and took judicial notice of the fact that the majority Ugandans in debating the 1995 Constitution of Uganda had expressed the view that hanging was acceptable. It must be noted that death penalty is considered a human rights abuse by the West. All in all, let the Ugandans express their will and consent on how they want their culture and norms to be or remain. Article 1 of the Constitution gives them that power.

THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED part 2
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 06, 2010

However Hon Bahati’s Bill should be 'amended' to a large extent; killing a homosexual is not a better way to rehabilitate a him. But if Ugandans express their views as against homosexuality, then let them be observed and respected. If they are comfortable with homosexuality or until they are, then homosexuality will be eventually accepted-lets us stop taking advantage of certain situations by Black mailing and threatening to cut aid. Teach Ugandans to appreciate what the homosexuals want! Show them the ‘right’ way.

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I want my money back...
written by Patricia, January 06, 2010

You do realize that it was Western Evangelical interference with your culture that has 'taught' you that homosexuality is such a sin that it need be cleansed by any means necessary, don't you? The US will not tolerate their intolerance, so they have moved on to a 'simpler' population to spread their lies. My grandfather-in-law was in the KKK, I'm sure he ended the lives of many African-Americans during his time simply because they were black. Is this any different than killing all the 'gays'? Yes, the US should not send any money or aid or anything to your country if your course of actions continue, it's my money after all and I do not support what you are doing. You call it blackmail, I call it a stop-payment.

MWENDA AND HIS ARGUMENT!
written by OJA, January 06, 2010

Mwenda's argument is logically incongruent. First, he makes a fallacy of generalisation by saying that those who are opposed to homosexuality are not well-travelled and lowly educated. On that he should find out what John Howard, the prime minister of Australia said about this topic in early 2000s and many Europeans, Americans, etc who are opposed. On that it shows his naivity. Secondly, he uses the fallacy of "Ad bacculum ad homines," an abuse of simple Africans who are brought up in decent family set-ups. This abuse is inexcusable and even shows that Mwenda is not competent to comment on this issue, and shows that Mwenda has no self-esteem and is shy of promoting the common good of Ugandans.

Countries like Uganda lack independence
written by Ocheto, January 06, 2010

Uganda getting caught up in a debate about homosexuality at this emotionally charged and nationally divisive level when they shouldn't have to is typical of un-independent, poor country. This social war is american, so are he protagonists on both sides. So, as in the days of the cold war when Uganda was caught in between the capitalist west and the communist/socialistic world, here too uganda is caught in the middle of a socially engineered american war. Even in America, gay people are divided over gay marriage - not all gays support gay marriage! Karamojong may not build rockets but they have a strong culture, that is what is paramount. Building rockets is old science. For Uganda: Get some authentic ideology that serves ugandan interests instead of this pandering, kiss-ass nonsense.

Founder and Senior Editor
written by David L. Wylie, January 06, 2010

Jesus spoke out strongly against adultry and divorce and not once does he even mention homosexuality. In addition, how can you ignore this scripture; 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:7-8 It is your brand of Christian that causes other to turn away from the Faith. Kill the Gays? How bout the Jews next? Then the Muslims???? Then the adulterers? How 'bout lets kill all the members of the Family???

Whatever it takes to stop Genocide
written by Kirk C, January 06, 2010

We're not talking about a difference of opinion on legal niceties. We're talking about potential genocide. The lives of tens of thousands of people are literally on the line here. Moreover, the proposed law will make fighting HIV that much more difficult, which is a large component of the aid sent to Uganda. This is precisely the place for strong tactics like withholding aid. Donor nations and NGO's should not be complicit in a policy that will result in officially sanctioned murder of gay people or one that exacerbates the problems they are trying to address in the first place.

...
written by Kirk C, January 06, 2010

All of this is further compounded by the fact that the "culture" of antigay sentiment is a direct result of contact with the "west." We exported it there, heck we exported the christianity on which it is nominally based there.

The suggestion that Bahati is an ally of gay folks because he has authored a law directing that they be executed is outrageous. It's like saying that Goring was an ally of Jews because he authorized the formulation of the "final solution." And we all know how that turned out. Bahati has not only opened the door to discussions about being gay, he has shown that the government considers the life of a gay person to be of no value, opening the door to mass slaughter outside the legal system.

Tyranny of the majority and where my money is spent
written by Jeremy W., January 06, 2010

While I have a great respect for the sovereignt of all nations, I must admit that I am still revulsed by the proposed legislation in Uganda. One of the principles of modern democracy, at least as espoused in early American political doctrine, is protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority. As an individual whose tax dollars support international aid to countries like Uganda, I feel obliged to demand that my government spend money in a manner that represents the values that my peers and I hold dear. I am also ashamed of the American politicians who have exported the culture wars and are trying to score points abroad where their opposition is weaker.

Mr
written by kisiyaga, January 06, 2010

Hey it's very absurd to see all of the Ugandans trying to judge and send others to death and other nasty punishments just because of their orientation. If you can't beat someone just join him as long as this world is growing people have been forced to learn how to live with others. So let you all Ugandans avoid cries and regrets when the funds/Donations have been cut off just because u can't accept other people's orientation.Mwenda thanks to be flexible and learned.

I have no respect for religious tyrants!
written by Hustler Hollywood, January 07, 2010

Don’t give up on Uganda. The country recently outlawed the savage practice of cutting the clitorises out of their females.

I have no respect for religious tyrants: people are too sexy for their hate, too sexy for their lies, and too sexy for their self-righteous genocide. We must expose the religious tyrants for the evil control freaks that they are.

Conservative Evangelicals and Ex-gays like David Bahati equal an underground AIDS epidemic!

I have no respect for religious tyrants!
written by Hustler Hollywood, January 07, 2010

Tell 'em Andrew!
written by Wepukhulu, January 07, 2010

Some of you homophobes really dont get it!! This Bill raises the question about whether or not a gov't has the right to legislate what goes on in the bedroom of two consenting adults. Gov't does not belong to the the bedroom--period! whether its gay or heterosexual sex. Otherwise in the same breadth they should introduce a provision in legislation putting to death all ' KACHABALI' practioners!! Yeah!! while they are at it round all those practicing 'PULLING' and hang 'em!

Mwenda Stop being so pedestrian
written by Paget Kintu, January 07, 2010

Please Mwenda do yourself and your readership a favor and print the homosexual proposed bill in its entirety. I think many of us are misrepresenting or misinterpreting that bill. It may surprise those who are saying Uganda wants to kill Homos what is actually contained in the bill. Mwenda, I think will be embarrassed (given his usually meticulous standards on reporting issues) when we ll understand what exactly the bill is saying.

So , mwenda has just realised the Nonor 's behavior?
written by Kayumba , January 07, 2010

It is amazing how Mwenda can swing between positions. I thought Mwenda knew that the Donors use aid to arm twist policy makers in poor countries to serve their interests. If you do not know this then you better go and get educated at Kyakwanzi and get a bit of international politics and geopolitics. Again, how can mwenda misuse the term "fundermental rights" how can you say gayism is about rights? It is about cultural assasination and hygemony.

Uganda has a right to legislate laws that are in harmony with our culture.

Tyrant majority
written by juma Kato, January 07, 2010

Jeremy , if you think that America has a policy of protecting the minority from the majority `s tyrany , you are very ignorant about how America operates . Ask any drug user / supplier, ask a polygamist , ask a man who is attracted to his daughter , ask the anti-abortionist ; ask the anti-gay ; ask KKK, ask the anti-establishments - all of these minority groupings will have something to tell you about how their " rights " have been taken away by the majority .

MWENDA'S ARTICLE ABUSES UGANDANS!
written by OJA, January 07, 2010

I have already argued that Mwenda's article is abusive of majority of Ugandans, Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Americans, etc who, logically, are fighting against homosexualtiy which is an "anti-human race propagation movement." Let Mwenda explain why recently the people of California (USA) voted to overturn a court ruling that had earlier allowed the so called "gay marriages" in their state. Homosexuals have rights as human beings but their immorality sexual behaviour just like any other immorality (corruption, incest, theft, murder etc) must not be accepted and promoted in Uganda. Business partners (baptised donors) should be told to keep their dirty money if it means attempting to devalue us.

It's all about human rights (1)
written by Akhenaten, January 07, 2010

What is perhaps puzzling is why this draconian gay bill has been introduced at this point in time? Is it because every Ugandan is becoming gay? Can someone actually convert to gayism or is it a condition one is born with? I doubt very much whether the composition of gays within Ugandan society has changed very much over the years. Gays are a tiny minority of the population. Some people have argued that gayism is not African but wasn’t at least one of the Kabakas of Buganda a practicing gay????? This was as far back as the 1800's! It is correct for right thinking people and the donors to oppose this legislation because at the end of the day it is an issue of “human rights”.

It's all about human rights (2)
written by Akhenaten, January 07, 2010

Uganda is a signatory to numerous United Nations conventions that are supposed to safeguard and protect human rights. Issues to do with human rights knows no boundaries that is why it is right and proper for donors to weigh into the debate. Whether it is genocide in northern Uganda or the persecution of gays all must stand up to oppose fascism and the persecution of minorities for simply being who the are by accident of nature. Uganda as a country has other urgent and pressing problems to resolve than wasting time on gays who are for all intents and purposes harmless.

Answering Akhenaten
written by juma Kato, January 07, 2010

Kabaka Mwanga did a lot things that he was condemned for . Homosexuality , smoking bangi , and cruelty ( murder ) were some of them . Its up to you to say if murder , drug abuse , have also always been acceptable behaviors in Ugandas society .
Akhenaten should also learn that law and " rights" dont always have to get along . While it is your right to buy and own a car that can reach speeds , of 230 kmph in USA , the law takes away your right to drive it as you wish or can . Besides, it is the right of Ugandans to reject anything that is offensive to our culture and traditions .

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mwenda runsaway with his mouth
written by j busingye, January 07, 2010

First, Mwenda you ought to be more critical of your writing lest you stub yourself in foot. My mum's lifestyle in the village in Toro in its own ways is benefitial to life than my own here in kampala. It has little to do with her gay views.Secondly, just as I would refuse to pay taxes to URA-if I could-knowing that the proceeds were going to be used to fund brutality and deaths on the streets as the 11-12 september events in uganda, I wouldnt expect another country's tax payer's proceeds to fund state extremism against gays in uganda.Thirdly, you must not ignore the fact that money not only talks but also acts.

Patricia..you've got nerve..
written by gay..straight..whatever, January 07, 2010

Patricia..you've got a lot of nerve coming up on this forum as grand daughter of a KKK person and trying to put forward an opinion. I think that attempt to insult our intelligence is ridiculous. Screw you and your KKK cash, or find a better way to put forward your argument.
Juma Kato..your arguments still reflect the depth of knowledge that you bring into these debates. One thing is clear, i pressed you for facts to support your opinions and you clearly failed. I see you again attacking people rather than argument, why am i not surprised. Get on with the programme man....the same goes for all you gay haters out there..give us real facts to support your hatred..

...
written by Hustler Hollywood, January 07, 2010

Natural resources is all some people care about in Uganda. They do not give a damn about human rights and democracy in Uganda. That is evil.

I am gay and i am proud of it
written by David , January 08, 2010

Mwenda,
I have to tell you that I support your stand on gay and lesbian rights. I am gay and i am proud to say that i deserve the same rights as any other Ugandan. The whole idea about passing a law to kill gays is just rubbish and crazy. If the government cannot even provide the basic necessities such as as water, sanitation, schools and a whole range of other things....why trust the same government in deciding what happen in people's bedrooms. The truth is that i want to do whatever i want to do. I don't need nobody telling who i should fall in love with, who i should have sex with and who i should marry. MP Bahati can kiss my f****** ass. I am free and I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY GOVERNMENT and
I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY GOD.

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Mwenda Is Entitled to his Opinion
written by Robert Sendegeya, January 08, 2010

I really get surprised at how most of the people reacting to Mr. Mwendas' opinion express themselves. In fact it proves that Andrew is an intelligent guy. You see Mwenda and the like minded people will always try a trade that other people will not even dare, i.e. support homosexuality. One thing about Ugandans is that they are so conservative and so can not easily appreciate other peoples opinions. Like Mwenda said the West in trying to blackmail Uganda because we passed the bill is using excessive force. Debate would do a better job and i must thank Andrew for initiating this debate albeit accessible to a few people. No wonder it is a handful of individuals who have dominated this debate on this blog. Such debates, to me, will make better year 2010.

Homosexuals are human weeds
written by Lakwena, January 08, 2010

Mathias, I agree with you, but it can't be sound mindedness when "two adult men of sound mind voluntarily have sex together in privacy". And Patricia pisses me off. Why don't you keep you stinky money and leave us kill those homosexual bastards. The homos are human weeds and taking up space. Since you have confessed that you descend from KKK it is a testament of why the white man is the most cruel creature under sun. Besides Patricia, we want to relieve you of the black people being the white man's burden. It was greed that brought you to Africa and elsewhere. We didn't ask you to come to Africa to turn around and say we have become the white man's burden.

Where did I fail ?
written by juma Kato, January 08, 2010

Gay-straight - or . . or whatever , I reluctantly spent time exchanging thoughts and opinions with you . You should read what we wrote . When I bring a fact , I prove it . When I give an opinion , you either believe it or you don`t . I ask you show me how I attack people rather than argument and I will explain myself . You have several of my comments here to choose from .
Try and press me with your facts now and see if I fail to respond . I hope that your fact is not about what you can do with anybodys wife for 15 minutes .

Aid etc
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

Mr. Mwenda where as the 'west' may be using the wrong tool, I would prefer 'Targeted Sanctions' on the MP's who like spinless jelly fish support this genocidal piece of nonsense. I think you are correct in one important point. That is the opening of the debate. I see a parallel with the 2009 'Buganda Crises' for the past few years we have been hearing of veiled threats from Mengo of hidden armies to take out Museveni. But when their opportunity came they mobilized not a army of fighters but stone throwing lumpen. The genie was out of the bottle, so too with this young man Bahti TOO MUCH TOO SOON. This bill will fail as it is TOO EASY to condemn. Let him read his bible about PRIDE and failure.

Targetted Sanctions
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

I think a EU, USA, RSA travel ban for the 'Honorable' Members of Parliament and Ministers who endorse this Bill should be seriously considered, together with Freezing of their 'Overseas' Bank Accounts, this is a better than withdrawing Aid in the for of Development assistance to the Health, Education and Infrastructure areas. Oh the Commonwealth may also think about expelling Uganda and withdrawing support for the House.

Hate Crimes
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

The other 'supporters' of this Bill should be included on a 'Travel Ban' list as promoters of Hate Crimes and Genocide. The US government should also investigate how their citizens were involved in the promotion and Funding of this vile Bill, Is the the USA EXPORTING a new for of MORAL TERRORISM

Tough Brian ?
written by juma Kato, January 08, 2010

Why should one be subjected to a " Travel Ban "because he has an opinion that is different from the Americans ?
When did Buganda say that they have " hidden armies to take out Museveni" ?

PERVERTS
written by Lakwena, January 08, 2010

Brian since 99.99% support the Bahatil's bill, why don't you blacklist all Ugandans for travel ban? I hope you are not one of those American perverts who is sooth, sweet-talking Andrew Mwenda into peddling homosexual stupidity. But one thing I know is that the majority of Americans are morally upright and decent people. The homos are equally revolting outcasts and hated in the US. That is why they have their separate night clubs or pubs. From Alabama to Wyoming: 35 states in the United State of America still have capital punishment statutes in their law books. What a hypocrisy to blackmail Ugandans lawmakers for legislating capital punishment for homosexuals in the name of human rights violation and hate campaign. That is BS.

Lakwena
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

If you can presume me to be an American (I am not, I live right next to you if you are a Ugandan as well) can I presume you to be Alice of the same name. If 99.99% of Ugandans support this bill then there are ONLY 300 Gays in Uganda assuming that 100% of gays would be against this stupid Bill. By the way include with that 0.001% the Hon Minister of Investment who has JUST made a public announcement, look it up. By the way Capital Punishment may be on the statutes in 35 states of the US but Executions fell by over 60% in the past year. By the way when was the last hanging (execution) carried out in Uganda anyway for any crime including murder, defilement, treason etc

'BREAKING NEWS'!
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8448197.stm
A Ugandan government minister has said that a proposed law which includes the death penalty for some homosexual acts is "not necessary".Aston Kajara, minister of state for investments, added that the government might put pressure on the MP behind the Anti-Homosexuality Bill to withdraw it.

Shallow minded
written by juma Kato, January 08, 2010

Brian , Lakwena has caught you out ! You seem to be a shallow-minded talker . You asked America to black list any Ugandan who does think like the Americans , and now you are accusing Lakwena of presuming to be an American ?
Why doesn`t Europe slap a " Travel Ban " on all American Senators ,and Governors who support the death penalty ? Why does Canada trade with China which excutes christinians and muslims ?

-1

Alice!
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

Juba, no idea of what you are talking about, i think I showed how exaggerated Lakwenas figures are, 99.99% not sure when i presumed him/her to be an American. I said that a Travel Ban should may be considered for those who would vote to imprison people for life on an accusation of being gay or execute them under certain conditions. I think the death penalty in the US is absurd, thankfully its use as dramatically decreased as for China their execution rate is like Iran and Saudi Arabia also absurd. I would also support such travel bans as targeted sanctions in all cases, US, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Absurd ?
written by juma Kato, January 08, 2010

If Americans can have " absurd" laws , why do think that they should ban any Ugandan who supports an " absurd " law made in Uganda by Ugandans ?
I dont know if you aware that in Uganda , there is already a law against the practice of this homosexual vile , and yet there are is no record of anybody who has has ever been convicted on charges of homosexuality . Compared to USA , Uganda is more civilized ´. Your suggestion for travel bans and sanctions is comical absurdity , therefore .

...
written by Shaka, January 08, 2010

The majority of the comments to your article are evidence of the narrow-mindedness of a significant number of Ugandans. (Just one case in point - the person who thinks poor folks in Karamoja are better off than their Silicon Valley human counterparts). Some might want to mail those degrees back and request a refund. A formal education can only get you so far, perhaps, at the same stage as a donkey at the well. To drink or not to drink becomes the donkey's business. I agree the debate is good. Ultimately, one side is sure to lose in the fight against discrimination of this kind. I wish Uganda's gay and lesbian population success in their struggle against mindless bigotry!

...
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

Seems like that 98% has been reduced again!
Portugal's parliament has passed a law to legalise same-sex marriage, but rejected proposals to allow homosexual couples to adopt.The bill was approved with the support of the governing Socialist Party and other parties further to the left.Prime Minister Jose Socrates opened the debate with an appeal to back the law, saying it would put right an injustice that had caused unnecessary pain.
Yes Juba I am aware or the Sodomy law (not actually a Homosexuality law as you wrongly call it) and in case your sex education is lacking as well sodomy or anal intercourse is also practiced in male-female sex, hence the absurdity of that law and the 14 year sentence on 'conviction'

...
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

Perhaps the Ugandan Courts are as Winston Churchill once said, a A Sodomy conviction is near impossible in a British Court, as half the jury would not think it possible while the other half are probably doing it. Basic point is what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults no matter what the combination is not the business of the State, Police, Parliament or any 'moral action' group

...
written by Brian, January 08, 2010

The ratification would make Portugal the sixth country in Europe to allow same-sex marriages after Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Norway.

Many other countries have introduced civil partnerships, which give lesbian and gay couples some of the rights of married heterosexuals.
Gosh this 'gayism' is spreading!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Portugal is neither Uganda or the World
written by juma Kato, January 08, 2010

Brain , I am not surprised that you keep on refering to what USA and Portugal does . You are a slave of the West.
There are more than 80 nations in the World where the vile of homosexuality is criminalized . Most of these countries have very good relationships with your Portugal Sweden and Holland . My sex education maybe lacking , but I have never heard that any sex between a man and a woman can be refered to as " sodomy"
By the way , Sodomy law is the legal term , while homosexuality is the subject .

Can U put the bill online verbatim ?
written by Ocheto, January 08, 2010

In the absense of an actual bill this incessant hypervatilation, exercise in futility, makes absolutely no sense. The Ugandan media is doing the public no service when it doesn't tersely state what is debated online, when it doesn't publish what exactly the contention is. Mwenda and group: publish the socalled proposed law in juxtaposition with the current law on homosexuality (aka sodomy law), and shame the devils.

Western interference
written by Gay..straight..whatever, January 08, 2010

This travel ban issue is just a bunch of nonsense. Absolute nonsense. The Ugandan public must be allowed to debate and sort out their own issues internally within the framework of what defines us as Ugandans and not what defines the West. The need to maintain a cultural identity has to be maintained even in the midst of this sensitive debate. The West has it flaws like one would never imagine, the vast majority of these flaws resulting from the moral breakdown and decadence of the western society. The idea of a travel ban for ones opinion is a gross infringement of ones freedom of speech

Everybody is in denial: The terrorists have won!
written by Ocheto, January 08, 2010

The New York Times columnist, Friedman referred to the USA as a country of Sept. 11, instead of a country of July 4. The world after 911 has changed for good. The world is more terrorised, exactly what the terrorrists intended. Travellers are now chatteled through airports like cattle in a cattle auction market.

I say no to HOMOS!!!!
written by Francis, January 09, 2010

Andrew, with due respect to your views, we ugandans are highly convinced of what we feel is correct, you cite examples from the west to justify your claims but we say this bill is for Uganda not for the west period. You have been a great crusader of democracy, even if we held a referundum on this issue, we do not want Homos in our society.

by any means neccessary
written by solo, January 09, 2010

Brian
I think Ugandan Homosexuals are being too nice to the likes of Bahati and Juma.
Debate is fine.However It is time to start preparing for war both in courts and on the streets.
remmber vthat only 21 people started the bush war.
St. Thomas Aquinas: an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust.” There is no doubt that laws are made for a reason and the laws of a society reflect the values of that society because of tradition, necessity, and expectation. But occasionally there will be a law, which is unjust and wrong though not for everyone but say, for a group of people

sodomy
written by solo, January 09, 2010

some things to think about:
why should a Ugandan woman be able to put a penis in are arse/mouth
and a man cant? discrimination?
Francis if Ugandan society did not want christians or tutsi would you support arefrendum to have them removed

Laws are either good or bad
written by juma Kato, January 09, 2010

St. Thomas should have talked against " laws " - all laws .
To a drug-user / seller , the law against drug use is bad . To a phedophile , the law that forbids him to have sex with with a 12 year old is " degrading " To an adult woman who wants to live on her body as a prositute , banning the oldest and most natural trade in human history is a senseless decision . Ironically , even the most civilized and liberal World still has some of these laws in place . Why ?????????????

Pussy Control
written by Hustler Hollywood, January 09, 2010

Conservative Evangelicals from the USA are not Uganda’s friends. Conservative Evangelicals have a history of supporting racist U.S. terrorist groups like the Ku Klux Klan. Neither are Ex-Gays from the USA Uganda’s friends. Ex-Gays have a history of remaining homosexuals -- pitiful, self-loathing homosexuals that want to kill themselves. With friends like those, who needs enemies? Conservative Evangelicals and Ex-gays equal an underground AIDS epidemic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hgGj8kbuRk&feature=related

PERVERSION OR IMMORALITY mustn't be DEFENDED
written by OJA, January 09, 2010

Perversion or immorality of any kind, be it corruption, murder, theft, genocide, alcoholism, domestic violence, or bestiality (genital act with animals), lesbianism, prostitution, homosexuality, pedophilia, assault, lies, tax-evasion, and many others MUST NOT BE DEFENDED IN UGANDA, rather they must be vigorously fought against. No clean country which values moral decency (unless already crooked) has the right to promote perversion. In fact, the issue of homosexuality, in general, is about the potential danger it poses to the propagation of the human species. Unless human beings are tired of living in this world then can homosexuality/lesbianism be encouraged!

beating my wife
written by martin, January 11, 2010

A Ugandan man I usually slaps his wife shoves her around. When people ask him why he is persecuting
his wife , he responds that this is a private domestic affair, his father did the same and so did his grandfather besides he paid bride price for her she is his wife and he can do as he pleases. Word gets to his employer who calls him in and cautions him telling him the company does not want to be associated with a wife beater. The man complains that he is being blackmailed and that he has consulted with his clan elders and clans men and they all agree that his actions are alright and that his employer should keep out of his private life. Is this man right

Forget Mwenda, Homosexuality is the Centre of this Debate
written by Kalule Mbowa, January 11, 2010

Bamboozlingly most comment authors here tend to go for Mwenda's neck instead of the subject he is on about. This is somehow absurd. The debate should focus on the issues raised about homosexuality if we are to get to the core of what the Bahati Bill is trying to achieve. Like all of us, Mwenda has an opinion(s) on this subject BUT home truth is; his has no consequence. Hold your breath! I will tell you whose opinion has consequence. Bahati's has, and it therefore becomes a decision. Why? Because it is MP Bahati, fellow MPs (and of course poor old Museveni) who will debate to either pass or ditch the Bahati effort. Contd here below.

Forget Mwenda, Homosexuality is the real Centre of this Debate
written by Kalule Mbowa, January 11, 2010

So it is imperative we discuss the tenets/fundamentals of the bill here and NOT Mwenda or individuals; that way we can help inform Bahati and other MPs' opinion as for it will become decision and ultimately LAW.

The tenets of the Bill
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, January 11, 2010

@Kalule Mbowa - and the comments perhaps are an indicator of what is supposed to be debate on the Ugandan scene whether at the moral or political level so often than not descends to!

Just a matter of cultural spillover
written by Des Mwagaazi, January 11, 2010

Just to inform all homophobic contributors here and the entire Ugandan society, that this gay thing is an inevitable cultural spillover. I should remind you ugandans, that we live in a globe village, therefore alot of aspects of our lives as humans, culture inclusive will continue to permeate accross societies, thus gaysim is part of that package am afraid. The question now is, you as a Ugandans, what culture spillovers can you cause in the West, where you claim gayism comes from? Enacting laws to kill or imprison won't stop it, as its a human trait, and am sure Ugandans are members of the human tribe living together with other tribes in one global village. You don't have to accept gayism but you must tolerate it, just like other human socities do.

Global village? Which village?......peddling weird sexual tendencies..and calling this global trade?
written by Moses Luyinda, January 11, 2010

To all the writers against homosexuality and its agents, I commend you...I must say its tough finding the time to always put up a response here...in particular comrade Juma Kato....keep it up man! Once again, Mwenda is producing the same old arguments by gays....redicule distort and claim victimhood...that is the gay formular!!

SERIOUS CRIMES ARE COMMITTED IN PRIVACY BY CONSENTING ADULTS
written by Lakwena, January 12, 2010

If not constrained by strict laws; there are possibilities of anarchy for everything including sex. Simply put, the Brian and Solos of this world are simply social and moral anarchists; promoting sexual anarchy (perversion). And all of them try to justify their defense for homos practices on "privacy and consenting adulthood" liberalism. Which is too wily and slimy for uncritical thinkers and observers. Mark you, all major and serious crimes, which attract capital punishment: treason, murder, adultery (in some cultures), pedophile, etc., are perverse (perversions) crimes committed in privacy by consenting adults. Just like a knife, sexual organs are design for specific function and purpose. Misuse it the consequences are dire and injurious.

-3

RE: THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

so what if it were “un-African” (which it clearly isnt)… should everything deemed “un-African” be criminalized? Is it even possible to define “un-African”, considering the continent’s massive population, its constantly changing cultural and social values and its incredibly vast diversity which includes countless minority groups such as LGBT? Whatever happened to protecting minority groups from discrimination and intolerance from the “majority”? It would seem, judging by the sadder parts of African history… that the protection of African minority groups is “un-African”.

...
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

"un-African” …as though Africa were some distant utopian planet that would crash and burn upon any interaction with anything “alien” (as defined by a loud group of assuming “leaders”). What would Africa look like today, if all things deemed “un-African” were vigorously rejected by African leaders? What would education, healthcare, infrastructure, industry and technology in Africa look like today?

...
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

Really, should African countries dictate the terms on which donor countries give them aid?
It's their money... if you were financially supporting your cousin but he began abusing alcohol and mistreating his wife and kids... would it be blackmail if you chose to stop supporting him financially? No! Donor countries just dont want to be associated with countries that pass laws like the anti-homosexuality bill, it's not blackmail.

to imhotep
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

"...destroy the African family unit..."

how many cohabiting Ugandan couples skipped introduction ceremonies, church weddings or any formally recognized type of marriage? how many of your cousins do not know who their fathers are? how many step brothers and sisters do you have? is HIV/AIDS in Uganda being spread by mosquitoes? how many African men sexually molest their housegirls? how many "African family units" have been destroyed by alcohol, domestic violence, adultery, poverty, disease, poor family planning, lack of education and poor healthcare... now compare that to how many "African family units" have been destroyed by homosexuality.

...
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

what's next? ...are we going to start proposing and debating laws to criminalize the millions of Ugandans who fail to match up to the "traditional African family" fantasy? ...is our parliament going to focus on "normalizing" the victimless private sexual activities of consenting adults and leave all the other real issues that have been destroying African families for decades to continue ravishing our continent?

The imperfections of the african family ideal...should not justify the cerebration of queer sexuality!!!
written by Moses Luyinda, January 12, 2010

yes, the african family has its ills...........its imperfections are many, we all know them and they have been listed here so many times for a long time. What is surprising is that we humans tend not to learn from history! Look at the countries were homosexuality is "apparently" celebrated and one is shocked how much the family is suffering!! Africans look at these developments in the overly liberal gayism permitting societies of the WEST and the say....no to queer tendencies!

-2

the imperfections of the African family ideal are not being used to justify the celebration of queer sexuality
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

those imperfections are brought up to show 1) the actual threats to the traditional African family (homosexuality isnt destroying African families), and 2) that the ideal traditional African family this bill claims to protects is just a fantasy. nobody is asking Ugandans to celebrate queer sexuality or give homosexuals special rights. the South African constitution defends the human rights of it's LGBT citizens... this has allowed for improved access to health services and sensible sex education, not just for heterosexuals. this helped improve the overall health of the country. these are human beings... would it hurt anybody if we treated them as such?

No global village !
written by Juma Kato, January 12, 2010

Muwanguzi , you are simply saying things that you have heard - things that dont mean anything . There is no global village when it comes to matters of law , culture and traditions . USA does not have to listnen to the EU when it is executing prisoners . Germany does not criminalize prositution are Sweden does . Saudi Arabia does not hold elections the same way Canada does . UK does not have pubs where drug addicts can go and buy drugs like they do in Holland . So , Uganda , does not not to be cleared by Obama before it debates a bill .

anteros
written by Juma Kato, January 12, 2010

How do you connect homosexuality with health in South Africa ?
I could say that even in Uganda , where homosexuality is forbidden as of now , a homosexual like Brenda cannot say that they have been denied treatment because of what they do in their bedrooms .
Be informed that there are historical and political reasons why homosexuality is legal in South Africa .
Be informed that South African is still one of the nations in the World that has the highest sex related problems .

Same sex stupidity: Why do homos want to adopt other people's children?
written by Lakwena, January 12, 2010

There is nothing to debate about the right and wrong of homos sex practices. It's plain stupid, wrong and sterile. If it is right and a human right, why do homos want to adopt other people's children? Let them homos and lesbies produce children out of their same sex stupidity.

-3

...
written by Moses Luyinda, January 12, 2010

two wrongs dont make a right; if the ugandan family has many ills and its suffering why add a sickness such as homosexuality to these already numerous ills? The gay arguments here are immensely question begging! South Africa is more health because of homosexuality? Are you kidding me? People where does one get such arguments? We love our gay brothers n sisters problem is they are teaching there lifestyle to children in america an come to uganda acting like saints; we know their intents; we cant therefore wait...to resist them!

pretending is dangerous
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

in the 80s, we discovered that it was dangerous to pretend that HIV/AIDS could not affect heterosexual Ugandans because we were too good and too normal in our sexual practices. we stopped pretending that priests got HIV/AIDS from mosquitoes. are we now going to start pretending that homosexuality is alien to Uganda, and deny homosexuals relevant health services and sex education by passing this bill? will laws stop people from having sex? should we pretend and let them die of treatable std's, and force them into fake heterosexual relationships so that they must cheat? South Africa isnt more healthy because of homosexuality... it's more healthy because they stopped pretending about homosexuality.

...
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

sounds like somebody has a problem with adoption. orphans and other children who have been put up for adoption need loving adults to care for them. people who cannot (or in some instances choose not to) become biological parents... the infertile, widows and widowers, homosexuals, and those who just want to expand their family through adoption... should they be held in contempt for "wanting to adopt other people's children"? Isnt that why our orphanages and streets are full of children?

from social silence to social science
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

read about South Africa for yourself....

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAcQFjAA&url=http://www.hsrcpress.ac.za/downloadpdf.php?pdffile=files/PDF/2265/17_Social_Silence.pdf& downloadfilename=From%20Social%20Silence%20to%20Social%
20Science%20-%20Chapter%2017& #x3A;%20Observations%20on%20HIV%20and%20AIDS%20in%20Cap
e%20Town's%20LGBT%20population%20&rct=j&q=cape+town+lgbt+hiv&ei=RGtMS63jI4-x4Qaa6tDlDQ&usg=AFQjCNG4k18mfPHFOmEXAz-fWcW9MN2hEA

...
written by anteros, January 12, 2010

it's true that South Africa has a big HIV/AIDS problem... maybe even worse than ours. but they have saved lives and made improvements by not pretending about homosexuality. we could learn from them.

Pretending is bad
written by juma Kato, January 12, 2010

Anteros , pretending is very bad . Its bad when you pretend to be a Ugandan . Its bad when you pretend to think that you know South Africa better than everybody else . Its bad to deny the fact that homosexuality is alien to Africa and Uganda . Its wrong to ignore the fact that homosexuality was introduced to South Africa by white settlers who had found it difficulf to practice in in Holland . It wrong to pretend that South Africans are more open than us , when it took them years to admit that HIV causes AIDs .

-2

Pretending is bad
written by juma Kato, January 12, 2010

It is wrong to pretend that you dont know that in South Africa men rape virgins to protect themselves against infections . Its wrong to pretend that you dont remember what the President of South Africa did to an HIV positive woman .
How can you think that South Africa is better than us just because they allow all kinds of sexual acts in their country ?
When it comes to morals and protection of human life and dignity , there is not much we can learn from South Africa .

-3

...
written by anteros, January 13, 2010

juma kato:
what has any of that got to do with my point about the health consequences of passing laws that reinforce the pretense that homosexuality is alien to Uganda? are you so cornered and out of points that you need me to prove...to you of all people... that i am a Ugandan? ...no need to answer that...

The point
written by juma Kato, January 13, 2010

The point is that if you dislike pretence , dont pretend . Your assumption that South Africa is better than Uganda because their system is pro-gay has no basis . Homosexuality is as alien to Uganda as it was in South Africa , before it was taken over by racists . The only difference is that it is the white settlers , i.e , racists ,in South Africa that made it a condition that gays must be accepted . Remember that even former murderes were pardoned as a condition . As long as Uganda is run by Ugandans , homosexuality is not going to listen to whatever suggestion that comes from outside .

-2

The Issue
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

The issue is the making of 'Homosexuality' a crime. Lets take another angle. I am a Driver. Some drivers commit criminal offenses, careless/dangerous driving, driving while drunk, speeding, driving dangerous vehicles. These are the crimes. Now this bill would in effect criminalize Drivers as a 'class' irrespective of the fact that may not even own or have driven a vehicle in years. So with this bill. A person may be Homosexual or Lesbian by ORIENTATION but NEVER had a sexual relationship with anybody. Should they now be classed criminals. This is the 'Genocidal' aspect of this bill that Foreign Governments rightly object to.

Second Issue
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

The second issue is a 'fundamentalist agenda' The promoters of this bill are Fundamentalists. They have a anti-liberal agenda. This is only the opening shot in their creation of a Utopia of pre-dominantly Right wing anti-liberal Christianity (a much abused term) all Minorities should wake up to this. For instance Muslims are said to be 10% of the population, Gays are said 3% Just imagine a scenario where these groups decide that Islam should become a crime. They would claim that 90% of the population being Christians would support this, would they also get the votes. I for one would sincerely hope not but once you blood a wild animal their appetite becomes insatiable

Third Issue
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

I have said before on this and other blogs that this Bill is a BLACKMAILERS LICENSE. We have already over the past year had a few high profile cases of these Born-Again pastors accusing each others of being Homosexuals etc, Imagine if this bill was ever to be passed well it would be the easiest way to rid yourself of a enemy or competitor. Would ANY schoolteacher be safe from accusation. A aggrieved student could turn around and accuse a teacher of being Gay, a parishioner dis-satisfied with a sermon could accuse a priest, a patient a Doctor a defendant a Judge, a motorist a Policeman. The country would become a cesspit of false accusations

Re: The point
written by anteros, January 13, 2010

juma kato: nobody assumed South Africa is better than Uganda because they are pro-gay. not only are you off-topic, you are woefully ignorant. under white minority rule, homosexuals in South Africa were subjected to imprisonment and forced therapy (which doesn't work). it was in 1993 that the African National Congress endorsed same-sex marriage, and their interim constitution opposed discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and promised to defend a right to privacy. Then their constitution was approved in 1996. read! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...#Apartheid

...
written by anteros, January 13, 2010

juma kato: we can learn from south africa just like they can and have been learning from us. it's not a competition, it's about progress

The Crime
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

If there is a 'Homosexual' 'Crime' then it is that of having 'Anal Sex" now it may shock some readers but this is not just Male-Male but also Male-Female. The Sodomites used anal sex as a way of punishing their captives (both male and female) hence the term Sodomy. Alas it was that Champion of Multiple marriage Henry the 8th that introduce the 'Crime of BUGGERY in the Buggery Act of 1533 with death penalty attached this was repealed in 1861 and de-criminalized in the UK in 1967. Uganda still has the equivalent of the Buggery act as a UNNATURAL sex practice, but without the death sentence. I think Uganda should follow its former colonial masters and even if 40 years late get rid of the act as well. Not sure is there has ever been a successful conviction (male or female)

The the defenders of homos must be homos too!
written by Lakwena, January 13, 2010

This debate is not about arguments for the sake of winning arguments. From a deductive and logical point of view, the defenders of homos must be homos too period. That is why they are hanging counter and jump on whoever threatens their survival. Because otherwise, it is a contradiction to defend what one is opposed to.

-1

...
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

Pontius Pilate used the phrase Ecce Home when introducing the tortured Jesus Christ to the mob baying for his blood. So was he introducing a Homo? When you display your ignorance in labeling people Homos you do not even know what the word means, well let me save you trip to your dictionary. Homo is the Latin word for Man. So let me translate, "From a deductive and logical point of view, the defenders of Men must be men too period" well my dear Lakwena in your case I hope you are a REAL HOMO (in the deductive and logical Latin sense at least)

...
written by Brian, January 13, 2010

Oh by the way to save you the deduction and logic extension Homosexual means Man or Male sexuality not even a very descriptive term in the context of this stupid Bill. Banning Man sex, that should get the girls in Kabalagala upset if nothing else

Brian is being diversionary
written by Lakwena, January 14, 2010

Brian is being diversionary as ever. He knows very well that the nomenclature "homo/s" etymologically (origin of words) refers to same sex partnership; as opposed to heterosexual partnership. In other words, Hon Bahati's anti homos bill that sparked of this debate is not about why men are men. But the abnormality and vices related to the perversion of homosexuals. We are asking ourselves why on earth would a sane man (homo as you wish) or a woman (lesbian if you wish) not know the difference between a man and woman to chose from as sex partner; but chooses same sex (gender) for a partner.

-1

Re: The the defenders of homos must be homos too!
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

Lakwena: that's just ridiculous! ....so, according to your deductive and logical reasoning... Barrack Obama, Nelson Mandela, Hillary Clinton, Sylvia Tamale, Chris Opoka are all homosexuals? these are independent thinkers who refuse to follow the herd instinct and join in the victimization of innocent minorities. their conscience does not allow them to sit back and watch injustice unfold, nor give discrimination their silent support. your reasoning sounds much like that of the interahamwe in Rwanda back in 94. it's called intolerance.

Re: Brian is being diversionary
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

Lakwena: "We are asking ourselves why on earth would a sane man (homo as you wish) or a woman (lesbian if you wish) not know the difference between a man and woman to chose from as sex partner; but chooses same sex (gender) for a partner."

The same type of questions could be posed to people who chose partners from different tribes, races or nationalities. Why should the private, victimless sexual activities of consenting adults be of concern to you, or me, or anybody else? It's none of your business, definitely none of the state's business. If you fear that what others do in private will "cause" you to become a homosexual yourself, then please investigate that fear and leave others alone to live their lives in peace.

Divisions
written by Brian, January 14, 2010

Lakwena, first of all when somebody presents a view different to yours they are not necessarily being divisive. Secondly you should not always assume that all your views are correct and that you are the sane one. The concept of sanity especially with regard to social norms has a long and dark history. It was once Insane to declare that the Earth was anything but flat, that the sun rotated around the earth and not the contrary.

...
written by Brian, January 14, 2010

The whole point here is one of TOLERANCE. You may not like the fact that two men or women can love each other (do you love your son?) even is that love is even platonic, and guess what I have NO problem with that as YOUR opinion. but there are also those who hold a different view and they also have rights of expression. If you disagree then perhaps you might prefer a Fascist State which this bill would facilitate.

Distorting facts
written by Lakwena, January 14, 2010

Brian you are engaging in self-deception. The love for or of a son is far removed from that of sensual love (sic) sex. However much you try to distort facts to fit your fantasy it won't work. You talk about tolerance: but virtue and vice; good and evil are incompatible, therefore intolerable. At the end contradiction will eventually kill you. The law of contradiction for example states that you cannot keep the eyes open and closed at the same. And anteros you are fallacious and made no contribution to this debate. Unlike homosexuality, inter racial or tribal marriages; so long as it is hetersexual is not an abnormality. Think of a better response. But you can't win.

...
written by Brian, January 14, 2010

LaKwena as i said you are entitled to your view, just a/ do not insist on ramming it down other peoples throats b/ just because you say so it is not proof it is so. Finally it is not about winning it is about creating a fair and just society. As I have said here before a society can be judged by ho it treats it weakest members NOT how it enshrines the will of a majority no matter how that majority is defined.

Distorting facts
written by Lakwena, January 14, 2010

Brian, when you talk about justice, it goes with principles. And an individual without a principle is dysfunctional person and cannot be a just person. If let loose, such a person will create a dysfunctional family or group. And dysfunctional families give birth a dysfunctional societies. And the vice goes national and global. That is why homosexuality is wrong. Whoever practices and promotes it does injustice not only to him/herself, but to the society. I am not shoving stuff down nobody's throats. But if it can kick some sense into somebody's head, the better, to save him/her from self-destruction or social ruin.

You assumed !
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Anteros , you assumed that S.Africa is better than Uganda be recommeding that we should learn from them. Regarding sexual practices and morals , its S-Africa that should learn from us .

South Africa
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Homosexuality was introduced to S-Africa by white settlers ( racists ) But it was criminalized by the White ( racist ) government in S-Africa . One should be able to tell the difference between what white racists did in private ,from what the white racistis public policies were at the time .

Traditional laws against animal instincts .
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Anteros , if you must compare gender with tribe , I will inform you that is some cultures , one can be fobidden from chosing a partner , if that choice offends the customs of that particular society . A Muganda cannot be allowed to marry from his fathers or mother clan .

---continued
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

----------In Saudi Arabia , no one is allowed to marry anyone that is not a muslim . A sister and a brother who already have children were denied a marriage in Germany .

Re: You assumed !
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

juma kato: no i did not assume that "South Africa is better than Uganda". i made reference to something specific that Uganda could learn from South Africa. even top students know that having a much higher class average than all their classmates does not mean they cannot learn anything specific from another classmate. it was you who attempted to calculate "moral averages" for South Africa and Uganda (is that even possible to calculate?) and use that as a basis for who can and cannot learn from who.

Re: Traditional laws against animal instincts
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

so, should we have those same Kiganda laws imposed on the whole of Uganda? people should be allowed to choose their partners without interference from the state. Saudi Arabia's ban on inter-religious marriages is unfortunate and should not be used as an example of what Uganda should learn from other countries. should Uganda really pass laws that criminalize inter-religious marriages? Let people choose their partners... it's none of the state's business.

Re: South Africa
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

"Homosexuality was introduced to S-Africa by white settlers"
That's a classic example of the kind of thing South Africans stopped pretending about. Homosexuality cannot be "introduced"... and even if that were the case (which it isn't), the fact is that homosexuals exist in South Africa and Uganda today, and they will continue to exist, and they will continue having sex, no matter how many anti-homosexuality bills we pass. if HIV/AIDS and all other std's were introduced to Uganda by foreigners, should we pretend that std's are alien to Uganda and ban condoms and sex education, since we have no need for protection and our traditional culture despises family planning and promotes overpopulation? pretending is dangerous.

it was the white racists!! blame it on the white racists!!
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

juma kato: racism, in the context you have been referring to it, has no place in this discussion... as i said before, that's such an old, cheap, dirty way to score dubious points.

...
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

"And anteros you are fallacious and made no contribution to this debate... But you can't win."

hahaha!! don't you just love sour losers!?
thanks, I'll take those remarks as a pat on the back from a sour loser smilies/wink.gif

...but i gotta say, i wasn't trying to "win"...
go easy on yourself.

Missing the point
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

You miss the point , Anteros ! It would be wrong for Buganda to impose its traditions on the rest of Uganda . If a Munyankore refused to follow Bugandas ways , would you say that the Banuankore are bagandaphobic ? The point is some people can be forbidden from chosing a partner because of some traditional laws . You are wrong to say that everyone is always free to chose a partner as they wish

It wasn`t me !
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

It was not me who attributed S-Africas improvement in health care to their laws on homosexuality . My own opinion , which is based on facts , is that South Africa is a " sexaully failing class " , If there is anything to learn from it by other students , this must be not about imitating them .

My mistake ?
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Anteros , I thought that I was talking to a reasonably bright man ! Am I mistaken ? Things / behaviours get " introduced " all the time ! For example , it is usually said that soul music was introduced to America or the West by African Slaves , Does that mean that the West did not have souls and music before slave trade ?
In Uganda , S-Africa and the World , there are many perverts who have sex with animals , toys , or small children . These will continue to do so no matter whether there are laws or not . What is your advice ? Do you think it is waste of time to put speed limits while manufactures make faster cars ?

Re: Missing the point
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

it would also be wrong for heterosexual Ugandans to impose their ways on the rest of Uganda, i.e. LGBT Ugandans. heterosexual Ugandans are free to refuse to follow homosexual Ugandans' ways without being labeled homophobic. nobody is insisting that heterosexual Ugandans follow homosexual Ugandans' ways. in the same way, homosexual Ugandans should not be criminalized if they refuse to follow heterosexual Ugandans' ways. traditional laws are followed by those who wish to follow them. remember the guy who refused imbalu and even disowned his tribe just to avoid the blade? he was free to disobey his culture without facing legal penalties. culture is not the same as law, just as sin is not the same as a crime - they should not be mixed up to create criminals out of harmless minorities.

Re: My mistake ?
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

sure, different types of music can be introduced to different parts of the world. but homosexuality cannot be "introduced", just as left-handedness cannot be "introduced". but i'm glad you've acknowledged my point that the issue of something "being introduced by whites" is neither here nor there.

Re: It wasnt me!
written by anteros, January 14, 2010

It's a known fact that homophobia and the criminalization of homosexuality pose a critical challenge to the AIDS response in many countries around the world. read!

http://www.unaids.org/en/Knowl...phobia.asp

South Africa is just one example of a country that's reaping some health benefits from decriminalizing homosexuality, regardless of who thinks South Africa is a sexually failing class based on whatever facts.

My mistake ?
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Again , I ask If it is worth the time to talk to Anteros . I thought that it was clear that some laws are made for the good of a given culture . I thought that the example I gave about polygamy in Canada , or prostitution in Sweden would be anough . I thought that it would be easy for one to understand that Uganda cannot condem Canada for having laws that are discrmitory to some of its citizens .

Not my fact
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

Its not a known fact that forbidding or not forbidding homosexuality in Uganda has any bearing on the spread of AIDS in Uganda . Rather , I would argue that " AIDSphobia " or "slimphobia ," was once a challenge to HIV infections controll in Uganda . My fact is that 95 % of Ugandans have never known a homosexual person ; therefore , the story of South Africa has no relevancy to their lives at all .
I have to keep on saying that the bill is for Uganda , from Ugandans , and for Ugandans . Those who dont like it , are free to leave .

Culture can be the same as law
written by juma Kato, January 14, 2010

I have given 2 examples of how culture can be the same as law . In Germany , where there is no law against the consuption of human fresh , a man who ate his freind was charged under the " cultural law " that forbids anyone from disturbing the dead .
In Uganda , there is no law that forbids one from eatling ape meat ;yet , people who are found with the meat , now get arrested because Ugandas common culture , and maybe the World culture , forbids humans from eating these type of animals .

anteros on a suicide trip
written by Lakwena, January 15, 2010

anteros, probably you are still a juvenile, full of bravado and unexamined life: For "a life that is not well examined is not worth living" (Socrates, 5th CBC) And if you are a homosexual or promoter, because you sound like one; you are to be pitied. You are and leading others on a suicide trip. At the end of the day you will have a very sad end. And I pity your parents, because it would have been better if you were not born. If your parents were homosexuals, which would have been impossible anyway, because same sex couple will never produce children anyway; your existence would have been null and void. Besides, have you ever come across old homosexual couple? They are probably the most pathetic hideous, ugliest spectacle for the eyes.

Sad Excuse for a Human
written by Brian, January 15, 2010

Lakwena, you really are pathetic person. Were you deprived a a child or something, perhaps a class bully. What gives you the right to say such things. Do you really think you are better than other people, do you really think you are right about every thing, just because you can Google Socrates for a quote does not make you a intellectual. The sign of a intellectual it the acceptance of other points of view and debate without wishing such vile on them. Oh by the way many same sex couples do have children, Google that as well.

Socrates was a Pederast and Homosexual
written by Brian, January 16, 2010

Lakwena, i just love the irony of you quoting Socrates. Considering he was like most Greeks of his time a practicing Pederast (one who has sex with young pre-adolescent boys) and a homosexual. In classical Greece homosexuality was an integral part of life, the Spartan army institutionalized homosexuality as a means of 'bonding'

Soc 2
written by Brian, January 16, 2010

While nobody today would support Pederasty and society has set a minimum age for consent for both male and female, it was part of Socrates life "Socrates is lovingly fixated on beautiful young men" so perhaps in quoting great men you might consider better role models (from your perspective anyway) for more..http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Sodomy/greek_homos.htm Enjoy reading!

Soc3
written by Brian, January 16, 2010

By the way Socrates was executed in 399BC on a charge of corrupting the Athenian youth. This is a bit mysterious, because there was no Athenian law that said that people who taught bad ideas to young people ought to be killed. Socrates can not have been guilty of breaking any written law. However, his fellow-citizens have interpreted this "corruption of the youth" as a sexual corruption: they took literally Socrates' metaphor that he loved boys, that forbade young citizens to sell themselves. Correctly or not, Socrates was held responsible for inducing boys to prostitution. Is this your role model Lakwena??

International Law
written by Brian, January 17, 2010

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay denounces Uganda's proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill as draconian and in breach of international human rights standards. She urges the Ugandan government to shelve the bill. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says if passed, the Anti-Homosexuality Bill would bring Uganda into direct collision with established international human rights standards aimed at preventing discrimination.High Commissioner Pillay reminds the Ugandan Government of its obligations under international human rights law. She warns this bill threatens to seriously damage the country's reputation in the international arena. http://www1.voanews.com/englis...753762.htm

Let anteros respond
written by Lakwena, January 18, 2010

Brian, why don't you let anteros respond to my comments? Besides, there is no evidence or statements " related in especially "The Apology" that Socrates was sentenced and executed because of sexual perversion. And if Socrates was executed because, as you imply: ["corruption of the youth" as a sexual corruption...]; then Hon David Bahati is right. Homosexuals must be dealt with firmly. But the truth is; Socrates was not executed because sexual perversion. But impiety (atheism). He was accused by Sophists like you; whose ideas or opinion he demolished to their chagrin. They were angry at Socrates for intellectually humiliating them (Sophists who boasted of knowing yet they knew nothing) before the youth.

Apology!
written by Brian, January 18, 2010

Lakwena, that is one of the views, actually there is debate as to the reason for his execution BUT if it was for the offence I mentioned it was not on account of Homosexuality but the crime of Prostitution which I think even you can agree is completely different. In Classical Greece sex with young boys was regarded as acceptable (no I am not advocating for it) as long as the boy was in a subervient role, homosexual relations between adults was not the norm only those who prostituted themselves hence the charge of leading the youth astray. BUT my basic point is why YOU quoted a HOMOSEXUAL in the first place if you think ALL HOMOSEXUALS as a sub-human species to be eliminated

the unsurprising ninety whatever percent
written by anteros, January 18, 2010

1) LGBT Ugandans are a minority. that ninety whatever percent figure from steadman's or whoever's survey is not surprising.
2) they are an invisible minority. albinos suffer public ignorance... what percentage of Africans believe giving birth to an albino = bahati mbaya? albino body parts can be sold and used in witchcraft? albinos never die? how much more will invisible minorities suffer public ignorance? those pastors are lying. recruitment is a myth. a pedophile is a pedophile, gay or straight. not all gay/straight people are pedophiles. homosexuality/heterosexuality doesnt spread.
3) oppressive colonial-era laws force LGBT Ugandans to hide - you'll be surprised how many upright LGBT Ugandans you have met unknowingly.

Re: Let anteros respond
written by anteros, January 18, 2010

kibaluma!

other than ignoring... how else does one respond to a string of random unwarranted abuses without stooping to the level of the abuser?

go easy on yourself, Lakwena.

I'll even let you "win" ...if that will make you feel better.

Prove it
written by Lakwena, January 18, 2010

Brian, prove it. There is nowhere in Plato's Greatest Dialogues; even in the Symposium, where probably you are deriving your conspiracy theory (because of the sitting arrangement: of a young Socrates' "admirer" sat next to him, Muzee Socrates), implicating Socrates in homosexual behavior. Although he was aware of some of his colleagues involvement, homosexuality was above his temperament. I can see, by appealing to a higher authority like Socrates, you are looking for a justification to encourage the practice. Brian give up the fight on behalf of homos and stop embarrassing yourself. Homosexuality is frowned by every society. I am sure even those who practice it feel stupid and idiotic and wish they could get out of it. Need help?

...
written by Mukasa eddie, January 18, 2010

I have not had the opportunity to look at the antihomosexuality bill. However, from what I have heard and read from the media, the bill does not in fact say all homosexuals should be killed. What it says is that, a homosexual who has sex with a minor, and one who infects a minor with HIV should be sentenced to death. We have a similar law (the defilement law) that protects the girl child. Just imagine a man bonks your 10 year son and tears his ass into shreds! We need severe laws to punish such a person.

Really!
written by Brian, January 18, 2010

Lakwena, give us a break, your Google will wear out with all the research you are doing, anyway if nothing else you are getting a much needed education. The sexual activities and preferences of the classical greeks is well documented if you wish to educate yourself but then again you probably do not as it might explode some of your myths. oh by the way do look up the Greek for same sometime

...
written by Lakwena, January 19, 2010

Brian, bless you for your knowledge. But no giving breaks to sexual deviants. At least I know that I don't know. Correction: I wanted to say sexual deviation was below Socrates' temperaments, not "above"! I hope you are not the type who think with the lower part. Please, I don't rely on Google for information. It is for lazy minds. Even if you think I rely on Google, it is not a crime. But, before one accesses your mighty Google, he/she needs to have a background or an idea of the subject matter. Didn't the white man tell you that if you want to hide anything from an African put in a book? Through what you say, I am beginning to figure out your character and personality . You are the type who try to belittle others (talk them down) when in a fix. Right? I can live with that.

The Bill!
written by Watcher, January 19, 2010

We've talked a lot about homosexuality but we've forgotten the point of this discussion (the bill). Homosexuality is wrong. Is it right to kill homosexuals?
Please guys, get back to the real point (the bill).

The same rotten fruits
written by juma Kato, January 19, 2010

True , not all homosexuals are pedophiles . But , its also true that both are perverted ! It is true that homosexuals and pedophiles suffer from the same faulty "mental wiring" They are both very manipulative and will try to do anything to achieve their goal . On the surface , they appear smooth , likable and generous . They act harmeless and friendly . This is the tactic they use to get sympathy or as a tool to net their victims . They will lie , spin ,and exaggerate .

Bad fruits
written by juma Kato, January 19, 2010

Both will play victim by blaming their by behaviours on their tormented childhood .If they fail to get on their side , they will get extreemly , sometimes dramatically emotional . Some of them will extend it to committing suicide .
They have manipulated the media , lied to the Western politicians and they are now blaming us Ugandans for not loving them .

Books
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

Lakwena, don't confuse knowledge with prejudiced. The value of books is that they do contain knowledge, perhaps the 'white' man relied on lack of education, But we have had our 'Independence' for over 40 years which is enough time to read a few books for sure. No I am not belittling you, even though you rely on crude terminology and appeals to prejudice yourself.

Tormented 1
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

Jumba you really have the most amazing fantasy about homosexuality, that they are all 'wired' up the wrong way and depressed or angry people. Well that can be said of any group you disagree with, religion, tribe, race. No you are the one who is curious.

Tormented 2
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

For a 'young' man you seem to have so much information and so venomous in your condemnation of homosexuals. Now either you are repeating some 'party line' or you have first hand experience. Were you perhaps sexually molested in a 'homosexual' school (same sex that is, it was the official term until the 1970's) If you were I am genuinely sorry for you but that was not Homosexuality it may have been rape and abuse and yes it should have been punished, but please do not blame the rest of society as a consequence.

Re: The same rotten fruits
written by anteros, January 20, 2010

juma kato: everybody is entitled to an opinion. many women claim all men are dogs - perverts incapable of remaining faithful to one partner. many men claim all women are gold diggers - they only care about money... basically calling all women prostitutes. i'm just curious about whether your opinion is based on the professional psychological assessments you have conducted on the sensible sample of Ugandan homosexuals you have met. It still wouldn't be okay to imprison and hang minorities on those grounds.

To Mukasa eddie
written by anteros, January 20, 2010

"...the bill does not in fact say all homosexuals should be killed. What it says is that, a homosexual who has sex with a minor, and one who infects a minor with HIV should be sentenced to death."

Unfortunately, this is a lie. It is a deliberate lie.

Quoting the bill:
The objectives of the Bill are to….

(b) prohibit and penalize homosexual behavior and related practices in Uganda as they constitute a threat to the traditional family;

Re: To Mukasa eddie 2
written by anteros, January 20, 2010

Again, quoting the bill:

3. Aggravated homosexuality...

(f) offender is a serial offender

This means, any person guilty of touching “another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality” (section 2) more than once. So, aggravated homosexuality, which carries the death penalty, applies to all sexually active homosexuals, including those in faithful monogamous relationships.

To Mukasa eddie 3
written by anteros, January 20, 2010

It is not true that the Penal Code provision on "Aggravated Defilement" does not cover abused boys. S. 129(3) clearly says: "Any person who performs a sexual act with another person who is below the age of eighteen years... commits a felony called aggravated defilement". It does not limit it to girls.

To Mukasa eddie 4
written by anteros, January 20, 2010

please read!

http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/...ommentary/

it's important to read and understand the bill. the above link breaks it down thoroughly. please read it. maybe then you will understand why so many of those who have read it are against the bill, including many of those who do not "support" or "promote" homosexuality.

don't accept to be deceived. please read!

The Bill!
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

Firstly thank you for the link to the 'Full Bill' really not only is it vile but badly written and really incompetent. Besides the glaring inconsistencies pointed out there are a few Howlers. The Jurisdiction, not sure how you can commit the 'crime' partly inside Uganda and partly outside, sounds like having sex on the border! The really stupid provision is the 'witness' it seems from reading the Bill that a successful prosecution can only be made if the evidence is collaborated by a witness. Well out of Gang Rape I am not sure if there are that many witnesses to 99.99999999999999999% of sex! Finally can a Magistrates Court impose a Life Sentence?

...
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

Oh by the way the Bill WILL protect the 'Boy Child' in one way at least. CORPORAL PUNISHMENT is now Officially a SEX CRIME, ie 'touching' with an object. And before Lakwena and Juba correct me, who is to say a teacher does not get perverted sexual pleasure from 'spanking' young boys. Disgusting Perverts for sure at least they will get Life Imprisonment now and be HUNG for a repeat spanking.
Finally I HOPE Uganda NEVER hosts a major football event, all those semi naked MALES KISSING HUGGING TOUCHING ROLLING ON THE GROUND....DISGUSTING PERVERTS

Perverts
written by juma Kato, January 20, 2010

Its not a perversion for a man not to be " faithful" to one woman . Its natural for humans to be polygamoous . Humans are not pigeons. Its also natural for women to be " gold diggers " . They are naturally " wired " to look for a partner that is capable of supporting them and their kids , a man with good genes .

Brian
written by juma Kato, January 20, 2010

You are an ignorant homosexual if you think that I am writing fantacy . Its true that most homosexuals and pedophiles claim to have been abused as children . Its true that most homos and pedophiles are emotionally unstable . You are manipulative liers . Even with this bill , you are trying to manipulate and spin . The bill has not stated that one will be killed because he is a homosexual . But that is what the Homosexuals in USA and Europe have told the Media .

Liar
written by Brian, January 20, 2010

Jumba No my young friend you are actually wrong, read the Bill, any of the prescribed 'offenses' og 'Homosexuality' even body touching can result in a lengthy prison sentence, NOW LISTEN a REPEAT offense is Automatically characterized as AGGRAVATED HOMOSEXUALITY which then carries a DEATH SENTENCE, so liar you. Secondly just because I disagreed with this silly Bill does not make me Homosexual. Finally It is EXACTLY because a silly young man (boy) like you can point and scream HOMOSEXUAL like a market boy shouting THIEF that this Bill is dangerous. As I have said many times a BLACKMAILERS CHARTER. Bet you love football and all those players hugging and kissing...disgusting

Young man !
written by juma Kato, January 20, 2010

Its my pleasure to be called a silly young man . Bad luck is that I am neither young or silly . Whatever I am , anyway , I know that a long sentence is not a death penaulty . AGGRAVATED HOMOSEXUALITY -. i.e. sex with a minor is the same as RAPE . You and I have our opinions on whether a man who knowingly angages a minor in sex and infects the child with AIDS should be executed or not . Maybe USA could give us a catalogue on who should hang. The fact that you think that if I screamed HOMOSEXUAL , you would be killed proves what I think about you . You will lie , spin facts , get emotional if ever anyone does not fall victim to your manipulative attitude .

Brian
written by juma Kato, January 20, 2010

A "THIEF" is not a criminal untill he steals or when he is caught with something he has / is alleged to have stolen . If possible , please try and understand the difference between a "tag" and an action . You will never learn if you dont try to . Read the bill as you have been advised to . There is nothing in it that suggests that any one will be prosecuted before they angage in acts of homosexuality . It is also very clear that AGGRAVATED sex , be it homo or not , especially with under-age children is a punishable offence in any modern civilization . If you have problems with this section of the bill , you can only be a pedophile . Sorry !

Young Man
written by Brian, January 21, 2010

Jumba, you as a student in Mbale show a completely unacademic approach to argument and conceptual ideas. Your response is to insult and trivialize, label and condemn. I have made it perfectly clear to any rational person that sex with children is UNACCEPTABLE. If you read the silly Bill you will find the definition of a HOMOSEXUAL offense to be so general that the comic example of football players hugging and kissing after scoring a goal 'COULD' be construed to be a punishable offense (7 years) on release if the player did it AGAIN he is no a serial offeder and NOW LIABLE TO A DEATH SENTENCE. READ THE BILL If I was yout tutor I would give you a F-

PS
written by Brian, January 21, 2010

PS Juba I pray that we NEVER get Sharia Law in Uganda. You seem to think that 'playing' the field, having 'away games' quote Its not a perversion for a man not to be " faithful" to one woman, by the way that is called adultry young man punishable by Stoning I think, look that up in the library as well

Unacademic
written by juma Kato, January 21, 2010

Brian please , let us talk like adults . Being rude is a typical unacademic approach : It usually reveals that one is running short of substence . When football players hug and kiss , they are not doing it for sexual reasons .They do it to cerebrate a goal as part of the game . If a Dad hugs and kisses a daughter, he is not sexually abusing her . He is loving her as a parent . But when the same father hugs and kissses his daughter for sexual gratification , the law must stop him . Try and teach yourself how to look at things in their proper context .

Let go !
written by juma Kato, January 21, 2010

The other thing you`ve got to let go is to assume that if a law does not suit your particular lifestyle , it must be called " Sharia Law" . What if I said that forbidding polygamy in USA or prositition in UK is something only a " Sharia Law " would do ?
By the way , I not and have never been a student in Mbale . I work for a finaincial institution in Uganda . I am currently taking a major course abroad .

Flogging a dead horse
written by Lakwena, January 21, 2010

Mr. Juma, I have given up. It is like flogging a dead horse. The difference between you and Brian is that your are defending decency and the straight. But Brian and anteros, and for whatever motive; are defending indecency and the crooked. One wonders; if they are not gays or transsexual, why the hell are they defending gay perversion? May be they are on the payroll of homosexual international. If a chicken thief in Uganda knows that the penalty for stealing is either being lynched or six-month imprisonment, why protect such a person from himself? Even cats and dogs know that stealing is a crime, how about human beings? Leave gaymaniacs to their own peril. Even God has abandoned us to suffer the consequences of our vices.

...
written by Brian, January 21, 2010

Well Juba if there is a grade below F- then you certainly qualify. As for Lakwena your self belief borders on the smug. It must be so nice to think you are right, in league with the Gods and your views prevail. I think you are actually a minority view, loudly expressed. Reflecting a closed mine and a norrow agenda. It is nice that you are leaving the debate.

...
written by Brian, January 21, 2010

Well Juba if there is a grade below F- then you certainly qualify. PS ever wonder if some of those players are in fact Gay, certainly Beckham loves posing in his underwear. As for Lakwena your self belief borders on the smug. It must be so nice to think you are right, in league with the Gods and your views prevail. I think you are actually a minority view, loudly expressed. Reflecting a closed mine and a norrow agenda. It is nice that you are leaving the debate.

Childish !
written by juma Kato, January 21, 2010

I must agree with Lakwena about flogging a dead horse . Brian , I dont think that I have to grade you . for you do it for youself . Yours is a very childish way of looking at this . In the world of adults , posing in underwear does not automatically make one a homosexual . Many of us dont have to wonder , " if some players are in fact gay " We are naturally wired to think that men are men, like red is red .You should run away from your own shadow is you go on "wondering "

Men'R'Men
written by Brian, January 21, 2010

My goodness Jumba you are Gay, I bet you keep looking at those photos and wishing you were there, dont overcompensate though you will become all depressed and even suicidal. Ha smilies/grin.gif

@ anteros. RE: THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 21, 2010

The people of Uganda, i insist, have the power to express their will and consent on how they should live their lives. This sovereignty is granted to them by the Grand law of the country which is the Constitution(1995). However, your argument is that Uganda doesn't recognize the rights of the minority and that every 'Un-African' custom cannot be accepted. I disagree with you, many laws protecting the minority rights and some in support of 'un-african' practices have been enacted. Recently, a law prohibiting FGM practiced by very few Ugandans has been passed to protect the minority group of women. Again, today women have a right to own and inherit property under the same constitution( this

@ anteros. RE: THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 21, 2010

Part 2=@ anteros. RE: THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 21, 2010

according to your argument, is an 'un-African' because it used to be against culture for a woman to own property) etc etc
You should, however note that such laws & the others, do represent the views of the majority Ugandans. Ugandans reconsidered their norms and accepted that certain customs were unjust and un-natural. This is however, not the case for homosexuality. Majority Ugandans don't agree with the act, reason being, they regard it as against the order nature and their culture. Until they appreciate the act, the victim will not be protected.

THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY UGANDANs OUGHT TO BE RESPECTED
written by Brian, January 22, 2010

The will of the majority is something politicians have laid claim to for generations. The issue being 'debated' is one that could not even be mentioned in polite society 10 years ago, it is surrounded by ignorance of what a 'same-sex' relationship actually is, it is fueled by prejudice, suspicion and fear. A genuine debate is what is required with Tolerence and understanding, not a Unilateral imposing of an assumed majority view

Where is our Independence?
written by Gad, January 22, 2010

On many occasions, president Museven has tried to create an impression that Uganda has reached such a level of development that if the Donors (he prefers to call them development partners) dictate to him what to do he can as well do without their money and assures us that we should determine our destiny. It became clear that all this has been empty talk when the anti-homosexiality bill was tabled. The President was ordered by Western powers to either kill it or not ratify it when passed and considering what he said during the NRM meeting in Entebbe, it seems he has obeyed.

HALF TRUTH
written by juma Kato, January 23, 2010

The Monitor has reported that the anti -gay meeting that was arrenged by Ssempa and others flopped . I have talked to some one who was there . She told me that the meeting actually took place as arranged , but some people left because they could not stay and watch the disgusting images that Ssempa decided to show without having warned them . My contact told me that she got sick when she saw a man pulling out his penis from another mans anus and started licking the brown ( human waste ) jerry .

Pervert
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

Thank you Kato for this 'Breaking News' all this proves is that 'Pastor Ssempa' is in fact a PERVERT. The Monitor story also mentioned he brought his two young sons to this PORNOGRAPHIC display.
Well under Battys Bill he would be arrested for displaying Porongraphy. Jesus wept

The cleric, who let his two young sons attend the press conference, said the boys were free to make their own statements against homosexuality
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

Pastor Ssempa should be investigated by the IGP and CID. He has 'exposed' his two young sons to pornography. He has displayed pornographic images in public. He has distributed pornography. This man is truly perverted. . His sons should actually be taken into care to prevent further exposure for their own protection. This shows the depths this demented group will go to to concoct fear and hatred. I have not seen anywhere a similar attempt by the 'gay' community to display such images to the public and children. I am sure if they ever did a lynching mob would be crying for their blood.

Take it easy , Brian !
written by juma Kato, January 24, 2010

Ssempa is a licenced preacher , Sir . Like a doctor, an advocate or a teacher , there are occasions where one can use those kind of images to make a visual point to his congregation, or a selected audience . I have noticed that you are incapable of putting things in their proper context . Ssempa can only be called in to explain himself if its is suspected that he was displaying pornography for sexual or other reasons , that are not connected to what this meeting was about . I am not so sure that this is what he was doing . I only find his methodiology a bit strange .

...
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

LICENSED BY WHO, TO DISPLAY EXTREME PORNOGRAPHY IN THE PRESENCE OF CHILDREN. This is SICK. I think this is a case for the POLICE and let the Public Prosecutor decide if he is Licensed to do these terrible things. . Under 'Battys Bill' he would certainly be ARRESTED FOR AGGRAVATED HOMOSEXUALITY and face a death sentence for exposing his vulnerable children to such images. This also makes him a pedophile. Is this the way he is trying to inoculate his children against 'Gayism" expose them to massive doses until they are resistant. SICK SICK SICK SICK and as for you Kato you are just an apologist

Selected Audience?
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

By the way when you say 'selected audience' do you mean Consenting Adults in private. Well clearly the Adults were not consenting as they left, secondly there were Children present. Finally if you are now saying that it is ok for adults to do such things in PRIVATE then why are you advocating for the state to police PRIVATE bedrooms. No it is you who is confused

Take it easy Brain
written by juma Kato, January 24, 2010

Homsexuals are known for spinning , exaggerating and manipulating . This is what you are trying to do here . You should hold your fire untill you know what kind of " children" were in that meeting . Sometimes , I wonder how educated you are , Brian . Ssempa is a priest who was presenting evidence , with visual aid , that there is a group of homosexuals that are using those images to corrupt ( read recruit ) children into sexual perversion . It could be a mistake or bad judgement on his part , but does that make him a pedophile ? Maybe the police can prove that he is .
How could I be an apologist after stating that I question his methodiology ? You have a lot of problems my friend !

Selected audience .
written by juma Kato, January 24, 2010

Ssempa sent out invitations and issued announcements . Those who went knew what the theme of that meeting was . Philosophically put , that makes his audience " selected ". They also knew that Ssempa is an anti-homo advocate . There was , therefore , nothing so private in that meeting .The National Theatre is not a private place. His audience was composed of those who are pro or anti homo . Naturally , some liked what he did , others did not .
As I said , you will have to know what kind of " children" were in that audience and for what reasons . I agree that if any crime was committed , the police should follow it up . I am not confused on anything , Brian .

...
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

Ssempa-PORNOGRAPHER
Ssempa-CHILD ABUSER
This man is obsessed as you are with Sex, and get over it. Just because he is against Homosexuality is NO reason to defend his actions.
Yes the National Theatre is a Public Place and as such he has displayed EXTREME PORNOGRAPHIC IMAGES in Public. This is a public order offense under Existing Law.Under the proposed (but soon to be buried) Homosexuality Bill he could be arrested and sent to prison for 7 years

Spinner
written by Brian, January 24, 2010

Amazing, really amazing when you cannot justify your answers you resort to accusing others of being Homosexuals and Spinners. The Children in question were his own Children he dragged along to this obscene display. The so called 'evidence' (talk about spinning) was PORNOGRAPHY downloaded by the 'Priest' from the internet and probably a 'Pay to View' site as it was so extreme. If it was then the Police should have no problem finding the trace, 'follow the money' on his Credit Card!

READ !
written by juma Kato, January 24, 2010

. Read what I have said : If what Ssempa did was a crime , the police should get him . If you practice sodomy , the law can get you today . If anyone commits AGGREVETED sex , homo or natural with a minor , they must go to jail ! Brian , I am not defending Ssempa . but just trying to teach you how law works. I feel that you need help with this . I believe that Ssempa will admitt that he down-loaded the material because he has already said that much .
I have no shame admitting that I am "obessesed" against any kind of sexual vile . I put homosexuality in the same class as sex with animals .

Buried ?
written by juma Kato, January 24, 2010

You apparently have no idea what " buried " means . Be informed that preventative or prohibitive laws - which the anti-homosexuality actually is to an intellectual ,dont necessarily have to prescribe a capital punishment . Simply put , if or when the death penaulty is ammended out / dropped , before the bill is sent to the floor , this WILL NOT MEAN that the bill is " buried" . I realize that you are not even aware that there is an anti-homosexuality law aka sodomy law , even as now . But you are free to celebrate ; that is why gays do best .

Like talking to a baby
written by Jespa O., January 24, 2010

Mr . Juma kato , I have read some of your comments and I can say that I am impressed by how you reason . You seem like a mature gentleman who keeps calm even when you are provoked . What I dont get is what you hope to get from talking to this Brian endlessly . Signs are everwhere that Brian is a little boy who is taking on a big subject . Anyone who thinks that if football players hug & kiss ,they could be gay , is infantile .

The pastor doth protest too much
written by Omeros, January 24, 2010

Pastor Ssempa has a somewhat prurient interest in homosexual lovemaking. His latest stunt only confirms how deeply anal sex preoccupies him. It consumes his thinking so entirely that he has to share his thoughts on it (with pictures) with anyone who will listen to him. Speaking of it gets him in a lather and fires his passions. One can only speculate as to what fires that prurience. Still, I suppose, his antics breathe new life into the time-honoured entertainment of inviting one's friends around for an evening with slides.

Same question this side
written by Juma kato, January 25, 2010

I have also wondered if it was worth the time to talk to Brian . But , having hit 37 last week in a country where life expectancy is about 50 , I consider myself an elder . So , if I dont "talk to the baby" , who will ?
Brian is not the only " baby" that needs help here .The trouble is that all homosexuals tend to reason like babies . For example , if you take away a knife from a baby , he/ she will think that you are doing it because you are preoccupied with his/ her "toy".

FACTS
written by solo, January 25, 2010

Every body is entitled to their own opinions.
No one is entitled to their own FACTS.
Please note that when you present "FACTS" these have to be
scrutinised for the Truth

Happy Birthday Kato
written by Brian, January 25, 2010

Well congrats Kato in 'reaching ' 37, sorry I did not know otherwise I would have sent you a card. By the way I passed the half century milestone a number of years ago. So thank you for the compliment. The problem really Kato is you cannot (in spite of your 'elder status) think in anything like conceptual terms, you live in a safe world of received values be they religious, traditional or plain ignorance and you are then more than happy to defend these as long as the crowd are cheering you on. So 'young man' show a little respect for the muzee.

BRIAN Vs Kato; RE:who is oder than who?
written by Niwaine Mathias, January 25, 2010

Brian am very much convinced that you are an intellectual just like Kato and both of you have great opinions than i respect. However my problem is; attacking one another wont give a gay man their rights and freedoms in Uganda neither will it stop men from loving fellow men. I still stand to my suggestion that; show Ugandans that they can happily live with gay people. Neither black mailing nor duress i.e. attacking one another will change anything especially among today's Ugandans from discriminating against gay people. Respect one another and convince the public in a polite way and that's what Ugandan's need.

Respect must be earned
written by Juma Kato, January 25, 2010

Niwaide Sir , we live with a lot people . Some rape or sacrifice children . We live with men who have sex with pigs and women who use their sons for sex . We have drug addicts and night -dancers . Before you ask Ugandans to respect the kind of people who choose to live like that , look at the West that is pushing us to imitate them and ask them if they respect these kinds of people .
If you have been reading my comments , you might have seen that I can firmly disagree with Brian without having to insult him .

Mzee Brian ?
written by Juma Kato, January 25, 2010

Brian , you may have crossed that half-century mark , but some strange gravity has kept you below that number . Maybe its the name , for I have never known a 50 + old year man who is called Brian , in Uganda .
If you want me to respect you as a mzee , you are making it very difficult for me . 50 year old Ugandans / Africans dont normally stand on the same side with moral prostitution, unless they are pimps or worse . The West is asking Uganda to sell our souls to them for sex . That is unacceptable !

Half C
written by Brian, January 25, 2010

kato you really have a persecution complex, you must have been buggered by the head boy in a all boys school or something. If you want to make a point make t without castigating everybody who does not follow your party line. No I am neither a pimp or prostitute and you other comments are equally juvenile. The west could care less about Uganda. It is ONLY a few 'Western' politicians (including a Luo) who are saying that this law is BAD and we do not agree with it and if you want to be our development partners then subscribe to those internationsl conventions you have already ratified. Now if that is too much then go join a Taliban state where you might be more comfortable

Really ?
written by Juma kato, January 25, 2010

If the West cared less about Uganda , one can hardly say so telling by how they re-acted to one small mans bill . A very busy secretary of State of the most powerful nation on erath called Museveni for 45 minutes , something she does not do when Musevenis police shoots demonstrators or when his army invades other countries.
Pardon me, but I reserve the right to castigate anybody who thinks that sexual perversion is a human right worth the panic . If you threaten a " partner " to surrender their conscience to you for money , you are no different from a street pimp