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Bahati: Don’t usurp God’s power

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Andrew M. MwendaMember of Parliament for Ndorwa East David Bahati wants homosexuals imprisoned for life or hanged. I am deeply conscious of the fact that the vast majority of Ugandans support him. But debate on homosexuality is being conducted largely out of ignorance and prejudice. For example, a friend told me recently: “I think all homos must be killed. My strong Christian values prohibit me from tolerating this evil.”

But was his anger generated by his Christian beliefs? Or was he using religion to service his prejudice? All sins – murder, theft, envy etc are equal before God. If sins were rated, homosexuality should even be a lesser evil since God did not take it seriously enough to include it among the Ten Commandments. My friend takes pride in “laying” girls. When I asked him why his Christian faith does not stop him from fornication, he went silent.

Although it’s using religion to justify its campaign, the anti-homosexual coalition in Uganda is not using God but the state to promulgate draconian laws. God did not bestow judgment of sin on humankind. He kept it as his preserve, possibly knowing that humans would abuse it. The state should not be used to enforce God’s will. Nor should Martin Sempa and Nsaba Buturo constitute themselves into a religious police to enforce it.

Besides, there are many Christians who do not believe that the Bible prohibits homosexuality. This is because Christianity, like all other religions and cultures, is subject to different interpretations. These differences cannot be settled by human beings. The Supreme Court of religion is God. It is therefore wrong to pass legislation based on one interpretation of one religion’s values and impose them on others. This takes away the rights of non-believers or people of different religious interpretation.

Many oppose homosexuality because it undermines procreation, a legitimate point. But there are many heterosexual couples who choose not to have children. The Pope and the entire hierarchy of the Catholic Church is celibate. There are many women who are sterile and men who are impotent. There are millions of birth control programmes in the world. All this has not caused the extinction of humanity.

Currently, the law in Uganda makes it a crime to have “carnal knowledge of someone against the order of nature.” Although it was meant to prohibit homosexuality, it inadvertently prohibits oral sex. Of course this is because those who made the law relied on a very conservative understanding of how sex is enjoyed.

Enjoying sex is a very complex subject that cannot be reduced to simplistic and traditional moralising. It would therefore be dangerous for the state to visit people’s bedrooms every night to ensure that sex is enjoyed only through the legislated style. For example, should the government investigate whether Bahati performs oral sex or whether Buturo masturbates? To do this would put us on a slippery slope.

In both biblical teachings and in evolutionary science, procreation is the driver of life. Therefore, I appreciate why many societies have traditionally been hostile to homosexuality. The existence of species depends on reproduction. Every evolutionary biologist will tell you that species that had high survival abilities but poor reproductive capacity became extinct. So it is reproduction that keeps us replenished.

But this also poses a vital evolutionary puzzle. If homosexuality threatens life, evolution would have biologically, socially and psychologically eliminated it. Homosexuals would cause their own extinction since they would be unable to pass on their gene. Research shows that every human society has homosexuals to the tune of 5% to 10% of the population. Homosexuality is also found in 537 species of vertebrate mammals.

So homosexuality is as old as life. From ancient Greece to the Roman Empire, homosexuality has been recurrent. How can something that threatens life survive for this long? Aristotle thought it evolved to check over- population. Modern evolutionary psychologists and biologists have developed several theories to explain it. But the debate and research continues. The good news is that there are enough heterosexuals who want to have children to sustain life.

While human rights organisations have been fixated on the state, the biggest threat to homosexuals is actually society since over 90% of our population is hostile to them. It is therefore in challenging deeply held cultural beliefs that homosexuals can find liberation. Liberal philosophy evolved to reject two evils – the despotism of the state and the tyranny of custom. The worst injustices are sustained through culture, not law.

Black people in America were kept as slaves for 200 years and as second class citizens for another 100 years. They won the right to vote as recently as 1965, five years after most of Africa was free. This injustice was sustained through Christian teachings, culture and science that projected black people as sub-human.

Thus, it was criminal for a white person (a human being) to have sex with a black person (an animal). By 1961 when Barack Obama was born, 32 out of the 50 states in America still criminalised inter-racial sex. Many whites supported this injustice, not because they were bad people, but because culture and religion had taught them do so.

Although many whites opposed this injustice, they did not constitute a politically weighted majority to effect change. Those who could make a difference like John Kennedy were afraid to openly challenge the status quo. Uganda needs courageous people to challenge injustices against homosexuals perpetuated through culture and religion.

In writing this article, I am aware that I am swimming against the tide. But I feel strongly that keeping silent in the face of injustice, especially one promoted through culture, is a worse option. I understand that well intentioned people like Bahati can promote extreme injustices because of the influence of culture and tradition.

I write this article in honour of those white people – the abolitionists – who, against the ridicule and harassment of their peers and at great personal risk opposed slavery and discrimination against black people. It pains me that black people who have been victims of discrimination due to cultural stereotyping are the ones most virulently hostile to homosexuals. The chains of culture can be tough.

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Comments (182)Add Comment
Lets support our gay brothers and sisters....with some alertness and carefulnes too.
written by Moses Luyinda, November 11, 2009
Andrew.....I agree with you absolutely that the honorable Mp was out to get cheap political points as I believe Uganda has more important issues to focus on. And I understand your point in likening the black struggle in America to the that of our gay brothers and sisters. But I also honestly hope that you do not equate a struggle and oppression that lasted 400 years with a struggle of the gay movement which constitutes many of the most economically well-connected people on plannet earth. In th US, thanks to the strenght of gay lobby, the gay issue has succeeded is the courts and in congress (where the people are not consulted), but failed miserably whenever it has been taken to the people to be voted on; Its no wonder that this is also the case in uganda. Christianity was indeed abused in oppressing black p
continue
written by Moses Luyinda, November 11, 2009
people....but what is happening in states ( massechusetts) where the gay lobby has won cases, school children (less than 10 years old), by law, have been mandated to learn about gay life styles; and parents are left powerless. Andrew if gay right means comes down to indoctrinating our kids, then perhaps we should support our gay brothers and sisters but carefully too.
education choice is up to parents
written by solomon, November 11, 2009
Parents can in many cases protect their kids from hearing about things they do not feel right by
the selection of schools. I understand that some parents do not want ther children hearing any thing to do with gays. I also know that in the US and europe are many parents who do not want their children taught about any religion. we need to balance things carefully
MR, Low-rated comment [Show]
MR, Low-rated comment [Show]
MR, Low-rated comment [Show]
Well Said!
written by RLS, November 11, 2009
Mr. Mwenda, Thank you for writing this piece, I wish more media would come out and present the many sides of this issue and that Ugandans could see for themselves that this bill is counter to human rights as well as many constitutional rights that Ugandans now enjoy - these rights would be taken away from everyone if the bill passes, not just homosexuals. Please continue to be a leader in opposition and let us know how we can support you in that role.
On diversity and American schools
written by RLS, November 11, 2009
Moses Luyinda, American schools teach about diversity in schools because that country is so diverse. Teaching about different lifestyles, cultures, religions and ethnicities that make up that society is important to avoid bigotry, racism and hatred that comes from ignorance about a particular group. Just one of the major flaws with the Bahati bill is that the authors believe that the existence of homosexuality will lead to some kind of recruitment. People are born gay, not recruited to it. Learning about lifestyles teaches children to be accepting of diversity, it doesn't teach them to be gay.
way to go andrew
written by John M, November 11, 2009
I am dissapointed that a country where the majority use firewood for energy, lack basic sanitation would even be wasting time on this. I wonder..... is this a ploy to misdirect and distract us from the real issues(an eye on 2011)? What sickens me is people banding my faith(chriatianity) as their motivation for the passing of this bill. What a defilement of the message Jesus preached.No wonder Jesus was not popular with the establishment of the time, the same pharisees are amock in Uganda, proud of their self righteousness!
...
written by Anita Zirabamuzale, November 11, 2009
I am very dissappointed with the honarable member from Ndorwa East. In your position as a member of parliament representing your constituency, it means representing all people whether they are gay, straight, young and old. You may not like their lifestyle but it is theirs not yours.
As a christian, do you even follow the ten commandments in a day. Look in the mirror and if you like what you see, then go ahead and judge.
Living abroad I discovered that most people who dont like foreigners were foreigners themselves at one time. Either their great grandparents or grand parents came from a foreign country.
Hon Bahati, i think you might have feelings for boys or even had a boyfriend in your youth. You may still have those feelings and hiding them because you are terrified. Please dont, you are who you are.
Please leave the judgement to God almighty.
PEACE
Andrew,Am not not suprised wth yo article , Low-rated comment [Show]
Andrew,Am not not suprised wth yo article, Low-rated comment [Show]
Gay Mwenda!, Low-rated comment [Show]
The right to sexual and bodily autonomy
written by Sarah, November 11, 2009
Thank you Andrew for your Article . I would like emphasise that our constitution provides for respect for human dignity. Human dignity entitles us to pockets of autonomy which the state or individuals are not supposed to encroach on without our consent. Sexual Autonomy falls within this pocket of autonomy. All individuals have the right to chose how, when and with whom to have sex with. The Bahati's and Nsaba Buturo's of this world have no right whatsoever to dictate how two consenting adults should have sex.
Additionally human dignity entitles us to reproductive autonomy, we are entitled to determine whether or not to have children and it is not the place of the state or sanctimonious bigots like Bahati to regulate our sexuality in the interest of continuing the human race.
Andrew: You have a POINT.
written by Edgar, November 11, 2009
Andrew, Wow! What a well and clearly written article this is! You have clearly opened the debate on a complex issue (homosexuality) in a simple way, yet you left no stone unturned. You have a nice understanding of dialogue and representation. Personally, I have always held strong views against homosexuality- mainly due to my strong cultural and religious beliefs which I have always used unconsciously a metric standard and applied them to discriminate homosexuals. Andrew’s analysis has led me to think twice about using my own standing to judge others. I encourage other subsequent readers to critically think about the point Andrew is trying to put forward. This is not to imply that they should support homosexuality. But then why should humans control or bother with homosexuality anyway? Even if they controlled or bothered with it, the question is can they manage? Or the intention is keep it underground. Does keeping it underground help? Or it makes it worse? You tell me!
Andrew there you go again!, Low-rated comment [Show]
..., Low-rated comment [Show]
u r spot on Mwenda.
written by susan, November 12, 2009
For the first tym i can simply agree with u. Am so disappointed in xtians being the masters of judging the gay community. Am nt gay and i dont promote it, however pple hv lost sight of God's purpose to create diverse humanity sexually. Pple who say Gays are the most sinners who r nt supposed to live, shd tek a look at themselves and ask if Jesus came like NOW, would he really tek them? Or may be they shd ask themselves why does God bless one mother with a complete normal child and another mother with a child who hs all kinds of abnormalities. Doesn't God love these two? IN THE SAME BREATH why would God create a Gay and a straight person or stil why did God create Satan and Angels?
Andrew, get back to the basics, Low-rated comment [Show]
God never made anyone gay, Low-rated comment [Show]
No sexual automonomy in Africa!!!, Low-rated comment [Show]
, Low-rated comment [Show]
There is more to this debate....than meets the eye!
written by Moses Luyinda, November 12, 2009
In the US....people with a conservative view on gay issues, for years, have claimed that there, from the beginning, was a planned gay agenda. I do not claim to have read all the gay litterature out there, but a quick glance at LBGT and their friends beyond America, shows there are intentions and motives which are hidden from the mainstream media. By looking at what is now acceptable in our media, n comparing it to the last 2 decades, one readily realises the workings of an agenda that has been in the making for years. The media, the film industry in particular, the fashion industry, our parliaments, our elected representatives (in the EU, the UK, and US come to mind) no one has been spared, Not even Andrew here, not even our churches, the anglican church, the sodomising pastors in Uganda, just to mention but a few cases.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 12, 2009
Not even the medical field is exempted, in particular the American field of psychiatry ,the place where, homosexuality was first acknowleged as a normal state and no longer a sickness. same battles as are the churches, parliaments, media out-lets in Uganda....Andrew keep up the good work but more analysis is needed....Shaming, inducing guilt in all christians is a trick that wont do with the people.
by the way...., Low-rated comment [Show]
...
written by RLS, November 12, 2009
1 - Making the argument that someone who defends the rights of homosexuals must, themselves, be a homosexual is ignorant and juvenile.

2 - Siting bible verses is fine when it comes to justifying personal feelings or beliefs, but it is not ok when it comes to governance of a religiously diverse country - unless Uganda wants to become more like Iran or Saudi Arabia with their Sharia Law. And once you decide you want to become a Christian Republic, what happens to the non-Christians? Who's bible will you use?

3 - A few years ago, the majority of Americans and Europeans felt the same way that most Ugandans now feel about Homosexuality. Sadly, some still feel that way but thankfully, as a society they have progressed toward acceptance. People like Mr. Mwenda and Dr. Tamale are on the cutting edge of social progress in this country and I, for one, thank them for taking that risk.
Videos....you can see yourself
written by Moses Luyinda, November 12, 2009
Dr. Brown.....an expert on the gay strategy....Dr. Brown has lectures available on the link below. In the name of diversity the gay life style has been fed to all of us. Dr. Brown has done many public debates with leaders in the gay communities! Here is a youtube link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zleUnpnSdrQ
A response to rtl
written by Moses Luyinda, November 12, 2009
Rtl...do not get me wrong...we should love our gay brothers and sisters, but when our gay friends abuse the bible to start demanding gay marriage, when they start teaching their life styles to children, then we are called upon to remind them of what morals christianity and other religions endorse. Rtl, First off, are you trying to equate progress with homosexuality? If somehow embracing this sexual immorality as moral is development, then that is a development most people in Uganda wont have.
Secondly, all major religions abhor homosexuality, its not only the bible, the quaran...the torrah, the buddhist books, and hiduisme do as well.
TO RLS
written by Moses Luyinda, November 12, 2009
Rls the above response was intended for you....sorry about the rtl misspelling
Any lesser offense?
written by David, November 12, 2009
Hon Bahati's bill spells out the same purnishments for homosexuals who viloate others the same way the current law applies to heterosexual abuse. maybe we may not agree with the death penalty but he is proposing it for offences like homosexual defilement which under heterosexual abuse carry a death sentence according to the existing law. It is wrong to allege that this is aplot to kill heterosexuals.
Am sickened by Andrew, Low-rated comment [Show]
The myth of a gay gene is a lie! Homosexuality is learned behavior!
written by New Springtime, November 12, 2009
Andrew, your points only hold water if homosexuality were a genetic characteristic, as gays have deceived us for ages. Recently the American Psychological Association (APA) have published meta-analyses of relevant research that concludes that homosexuality is merely learned behavior which can be unlearned with no side effects. I have several "gay" friends who have repented from this evil and moved on to productive lives. In 1986, I was raped by a homosexual. I forgave this person and he too has changed his ways. Homosexuality is evil in our culture. It is an evil habit like pedophilia or rape. Just because Europeans glorify it we don't have to do likewise. We're Ugandans not Europeans. Let's ban it!!
...
written by Ugandan At Large, November 12, 2009
Andrew, your article is spot on. Suffice it to say that I had an attitude just like your friend exhibits and I thought it a terrible thing for one to be gay.
But then that was while I was a young man growing up and unexposed to what other cultures do tolerate.
Now that I'm concurrently living in both Europe and Uganda for last four years, I can clearly understand what Bahati and your friend amongst others are suffering from. And that's with me not being homosexual but knowing that those that are; are living in the same country and enjoying same priviledges and opportunities like me. I'm 26 by the way.
It will take people like you and others as you mention in your atticle to change hearts and minds.
Well written article Andrew.
mwenda
written by OMUGANDA, November 12, 2009
mwenda ur argument fall below reason, if u look through the bible God never allowed gays, and even paul when was inspired by the spirit he said "such people dont deserve to live" apart from religious view mwenda tell me whats so sweet in that smelly ass? are those friends of urs feel so happy when they see s**t on their dick? when i see u pple who are enlightened go crazy i conclude that in 200yrs to come africa will ocupied by very stupid ple who cant differentiate the right from wrong
BIG UP MWENDA
written by kagzjoe, November 12, 2009
i think attacking Mwenda is a very pathetic and a sign of low thinking.
whoever thinks Mwenda did wrong to come out with his opinon as a journalist and write what he feels is worth,then what you are talking about is total BOLOX.
those likes of the Ssempa,Buturo,Bahait are the chief adulterous MEN who claim they are very HOLY.
and pretend they are the men of God.YET they have more than 4 mistresses besides their marriages and for the Ssempas,have them in the church choirs!! You know there is a saying send a "thief to catch a thief" because a thief can easily identify a fellow thief,so the same applies to these guys,actually they must be Homos.
i have worked closely with church leaders and i know what they do undercover! but if you ask them isnt that the biggest sin,to commit adultery and pretend they are HOLY in public?
at least the gays will not deny it and either we like it or not we have to accept that they are to LIVE AMONG US!!
BIG UP MWENDA
written by kagzjoe, November 12, 2009
i think attacking Mwenda is a very pathetic and a sign of low thinking.
whoever thinks Mwenda did wrong to come out with his opinon as a journalist and write what he feels is worth,then what you are talking about is total BOLOX.
those likes of the Ssempa,Buturo,Bahait are the chief adulterous MEN who claim they are very HOLY.
and pretend they are the men of God.YET they have more than 4 mistresses besides their marriages and for the Ssempas,have them in the church choirs!! You know there is a saying send a "thief to catch a thief" because a thief can easily identify a fellow thief,so the same applies to these guys,actually they must be Homos.
i have worked closely with church leaders and i know what they do undercover! but if you ask them isnt that the biggest sin,to commit adultery and pretend they are HOLY in public?
at least the gays will not deny it and either we like it or not we have to accept that they are to LIVE AMONG US!!
stop being small gods
written by Joankagz, November 12, 2009
instead of wasting time on the Homosexuals bill,let them table a bill against those who wish others death,because a habit starts by thinking,talking,then action,so those guys commanding death of homosexuals,MUST HAVE MURDEROUS HISTORIES.
GOD FORGIVE THEIR SICK MINDS,that make them think that the lives of others are controlled by the law culture and religion,instead of GOD.
let me ask,do you guys think that GOD is blind,that doesn't see these Homosexuals?? or why does GOD still keep them on earth if they were really not worth LIVING?
or you are trying to prove to be seeing more than GOD!! if that's the case,then you must be knowing the DATES and TIME of your death.....
otherwise,before you wish death for others, first wonder when is your DEATH!!!,because you might end up dying before the homosexuals you think are worth of death.....
stop being small gods
written by Joankagz, November 12, 2009
instead of wasting time on the Homosexuals bill,let them table a bill against those who wish others death,because a habit starts by thinking,talking,then action,so those guys commanding death of homosexuals,MUST HAVE MURDEROUS HISTORIES.
GOD FORGIVE THEIR SICK MINDS,that make them think that the lives of others are controlled by the law culture and religion,instead of GOD.
let me ask,do you guys think that GOD is blind,that doesn't see these Homosexuals?? or why does GOD still keep them on earth if they were really not worth LIVING?
or you are trying to prove to be seeing more than GOD!! if that's the case,then you must be knowing the DATES and TIME of your death.....
otherwise,before you wish death for others, first wonder when is your DEATH!!!,because you might end up dying before the homosexuals you think are worth of death.....
Papa.....You may have a point.
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
Andrew, I know the media is a business. Journalists always write about polemic and controversial stories. Ideally writing should be for the sake of the truth, for truth's sake; unfortunately, the business component of all media overshadows the truth; and it is along this line that I would extend on PAPA's comment. Lets not let money cloud our judgement, lets not sell our souls by peddling stories that will adversely affect the time honoured morals of this country Uganda.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
A day never passes without ugandan papers talking about gays and how they are oppressed....the truth is gays are not oppressed...for a developing country as ours to have in the media, our national conversation controlled by the gay agenda is evidence that gay money is working, and yes gays are not oppressed its a myth!!!
lastly...
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
Gays have all the money, and yes money talks...and gay money has talked itself into ugandan news paper headlines. Just like, it has been the case in rest of the world. So perhaps, Andrew and other journalists can not resist; but remember ugandans are smart and they will see thru these myths, they wont stand.
keep your gods to your selves please
written by solomon, November 13, 2009
the most charitable comment I have read said about Bahati is that at least the title of his bill is honest. Meaning he hates gays and will not tolerate them.
As for God and religion I think everyone is entitled to interprete what ever book they belive in.
Aglicans with their gay Bishops. What is that. Some of us do not belive in God .
There is a problem with bestaility because the animals cannot consent.
Having a debate about how grown men treat other grown men is the height of arrogance.
We must call this what it is a back door way to force ugandans to beileve in the religions of some people
you need help
written by ojok henry, November 13, 2009
I strongly believe that u Andrew are being supported by these 'homosexual country' no wonder u are always traversing their country; and they like you so much. and since when did you ever the moral authority to talk about God, considering that you are an atheist. anyway, i like you, nice work.
Not culture, Low-rated comment [Show]
We will always be liberals on some issues and yes, we are also conservative on other issues....
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
To solomon......the homo behaviour is not natural, its not african, even has our gay brothers n sisters try so much to convince us that Homosexuality is practiced among certain tribes in africa. Homosexuality is anti-christian n gay churches in America are an oxymoron, a paradox and they make no sense. What gays are out to do is to finish off the family institution and ultimately humanity.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
They say human rights is their cause in the beginning...but their demands increase as they get accepted,...Children in Schools in America n the UK are being indotrinated as we debate here. Morality has lost the public battle against gays who seem to be all over the media;Andrew knows this. But the silent majority, the people you never see on tv or in nEWSPAPERS, in private refuse to believe that homosexuality is natural. i REST MY CASE.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
They say human rights is their cause in the beginning...but their demands increase as they get accepted,...Children in Schools in America n the UK are being indotrinated as we debate here. Morality has lost the public battle against gays who seem to be all over the media;Andrew knows this. But the silent majority, the people you never see on tv or in nEWSPAPERS, in private refuse to believe that homosexuality is natural. i REST MY CASE.
...
written by Omeros, November 13, 2009
"the homo behaviour is not natural, its not african"
@ Moses Luyinda - It's funny how social conservatives in all cultures across the ages have believed homosexuality to be a menace visited upon their societies by gangs of louche foreigners: the Romans thought it Greek, the ancient tribes of Israel characterised it as Babylonian, Anglo-Saxons blame it on the French, the Saudis point the finger at the Lebanese, while Africans and Carribeans are in no doubt that the fault lies with Europeans. If they were not strangers to intellectual honesty, Uganda's reactionaries would recognise that homosexuality is as indigenous as the red earth on which they walk.
BEING HOMOSEXUAL IS SICKNESS NOT A RIGHT!
written by OJA, November 13, 2009
Those who are say to be homosexual or lesbian is a human right is a wrong interpretation. First of all from the religious point of view it is an abomination. So this practice must be condemned and castigated in the Ugandan society. Secondly, it condemns the human race to extinction. For that matter promoting homosexuality is equal to promoting mass murder and therefore condemning the human race to extinction. The advocates should ask themselves why majority of people are against such perverted sexual orientation. The solution is for those afflicted with this abnormality should be counseled to overcome that tendency. I cannot and will never accept homosexual perversion as a human right but a grave pychological illness that needs to be treated.
In reply to Mr Omeros...
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
Mr. Omeros; I agree with you that today, uganda has a tiny number of gays; I also hope you wud agree with me that the gay issue is disproportinately taking up much space in our national conversation considering the proportion of gays in the ugandan population. And by the way, homosexuality was always abhorred even b4 christianity came to africa.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
Mr Omeros, there will always be deviants as far as human sexuality is concerned but it shud not mean that the rest of society shud be imposed upon as the gays have so successfully done in the all EU, the UK, and now in America....if there is any issue that is going to bring back the Republicans in the white house; its the gay issue. thats why Obama is very careful in accomodating gay lobbyists!!! You know naturally a man n a man cant reproduce; woman n woman cant either; so gays have to depend on recruitment; and most people resent this!!!
Private busness
written by ADSON ARINAITWE, November 13, 2009
Anybody who suggested that this has anything to do with procreation is the one who spoilt the whole debate. This act has been on for as long as there has been life, however, what makes me sick is those who recruit young ones into the act.
If what they claim is true, that homosexuality is inborn just like any other things that we do, why dont they let those who have the genes do it on their own?? why do they train others??. No one trains young people how to do normal sex, but they still learn it. It shoud be the same. If any one's sexiaul oriantation is naturaly homosexual, he will look for people of his sex. People who are not hormosexual should be protected from those who want to recruit them into what they are not. Human rights groups have a disease of forcusing on minorities and ignoring oppressed majorities
Response to Mr. Luyinda - pt 1
written by Omeros, November 13, 2009
I hardly think the furore over homosexuality disproportionate when what is at issue is clumsy and intrusive legislation that stands to criminalise a vast swathe of the population - not just homosexuals, but also those people who fail to disclose to the authorities the fact of a person's homosexuality within 24 hours their having become aware of such person's homosexuality. This vengeful bill even introduces a capital offence - a matter worthy of robust public discussion, I'm sure you'd agree.
Response to Mr. Luyinda - pt 2
written by Omeros, November 13, 2009
I don't think even you believe procreation to be the legitimating factor of human sexuality. Were that your genuine belief, I would expect to see you seeking to proscribe condom use, which, on your account, also frustrates the "order of nature". Yet the government and the church (bar the Catholics) cheerfully preach the "C" in "ABC" without popular outcry. I would also expect to hear you rail against anal sex as performed by (and enjoyed by a great many) heterosexual couples. But your silence on that score is deafening.
Response to Mr. Luyinda pt 3
written by Omeros, November 13, 2009
You seem to consider it illegitimate that gay people in Uganda are assisted by well-funded, professional advocacy groups. You seem particularly to resent the fact that funding for that advocacy comes from abroad. That is what you point to when you speak of homosexuality being "imposed" from "outside". Yet you have no difficulty in accepting the message of evangelical church groups, lavishly funded from overseas, which preach total intolerance of homosexuality. The hypocrisy is stunning.
Response to Mr. Luyinda pt 4
written by Omeros, November 13, 2009
I think you'll find that the two issues hobbling Mr. Obama's presidency more than any other are health care and Afghanistan.
Homophobia is about hatred, including self-loathing
written by Ocheto, November 13, 2009
Slavery like colonialism collapsed, because they became unprofitable. Homophobia is a currency haters use to demonise, dehumanise, alienate and persecute the people they hate. The crimes of pornography, child abuse, and sexual harrasment is among heterosexual too. For Africa the numbers are not there;it's more like less than 0.1% of the population is homosexual, making it an insignificant, non-issue. Homosexuals contribute to science and arts and culture even if they do not bear offsprings. For example, the famous mathematician and computer scientist, Englishman Alan Turing, was gay. Whereas legislators like Mahoney (sexually harassing young male interns) and Craig (soliciting gay sex in an airport bathroom) were enacting droconian, antigay laws when they, themselves are gay, are typical of closeted self-loathing gays. So, besides the bankrutpness of Bahati's political views, he him and Emporor if investigated could be found to be self-loathing closeted(hiding) gays
A reply to Mr. Omeros; your points are taken but......
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
First off, Mr. Omeros, we both agree,at issue, the bill tabled by the said MP, went overboard and I can never endorse such an extremist law; Secondly, you redicule a sensible point; but while, condom use and homosexuality have similar ends, they are two different things, the one a contraceptive, the other a deviant human sexual behaviour, that holds no potential whatsoever for reproducing a new life.
continued
written by Moses Luyinda, November 13, 2009
condoms do break hence life potential in them exists, while copulation man to man or woman to woman holds zero life reproducing potential!!! most people are perplexed by the paradox of our gay brothers n sisters who wish not to reproduce but are eagerly willing to indoctrinate adopted kids.

continued2
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
Thirdly, I am fine with all the funding toward gay causes, even as I believe it wrong n I understand churches in Uganda are resisting, thru their support from conservatives abroad n this is because the battle against homosexuality has never been only local, on the contrary its global today - more than ever before!
Bravo, Andrew, for comparing homophobia to anti-miscegenation laws in the US
written by EA, November 14, 2009
Great piece, Andrew. I'm pleased that you see the connection between anti-homosexuality laws and anti-miscegenation laws in the US. When the US Supreme Court handed down Loving v. Virginia in 1967, all anti-miscegenation laws that were still on the books in various US states went defunct. Today, though, intrepid legislatures throughout the country have been reviving some of those laws to restrict gay marriage. (This happened a few years ago in Massachusetts, when then-governor Mitt Romney helped revive certain restrictions in a defunct statute from 1913 that prohibited interracial couples who lived outside Mass. from traveling to Mass. to get married if they lived in a state that prohibited interracial marriage. That statute now serves the same function in preventing gay couples from marrying. These loathsome connections are sadly lost on too many of us African Americans.)
Bravo, Andrew, for comparing homophobia to anti-miscegenation laws in the US (part 2)
written by EA, November 14, 2009
It takes courage to write these things, Andrew, and no doubt you will be targeted and smeared in the process. Bravo to you for speaking up. A true intellectual must always push against the tide.
Mr. Luyinda
written by Omeros, November 14, 2009
Mr. Luyinda, you compound the absurdity of your position. If a sexual act can only be legitimate on account of its potentiality to "make new life", then every sexual act that is without such potentiality is, according to your lights, deviant. Am I then to take it that oral sex is deviant? What of masturbation? What of anal sex as performed by heterosexual couples and the myriad other sexual acts that are not, of themselves, purely procreative? Should the criminal law proscribe all such acts?
But Mr. Omeros....
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
Mr Homeros,.....Absurd? Here you go again, you redicule a very sensible point, even my niece would understand my point.....in my last reply to you I maintained that condom use and homosexuality are acts that involve two people; the one act being a contraceptive the other a deviant behaviour; Oral sex in itself has no life producing potential but potential is in the people engaging in it together , i.e. if and only if, the two people involved are a man and woman; Mr Omeros,I sense you seem articulate, but if you cant get my point ...this simple point here,...then you just cant get it!!
By the way Mr. Omeros...
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
The niece I refer to in the above is 10 years, at times, I stutter as I have to explain when she asks whats up with two men acting like a mom and dad.
Mr. Luyinda
written by Omeros, November 14, 2009
Mr. Luyinda, merely repeating a logically flawed argument (and insisting that I don't get your point - I do, it's flawed) does you no credit. Why not just say, "I hate gays. I hate them because they are deviants. They are deviants because they are different. Difference threatens me. I hate what I don't know"? That way we wouldn't have to entertain pseudo arguments that rely on false distinctions as to what constitutes legitimate sex (the potentiality to "produce new life"! - are you serious!). Instead, we can have an old-fashioned political debate as to whether it makes sense to criminalise perfectly productive citizens on the basis that their sexual proclivities do not agree with us.
Oh, by the way Mr. Luyinda
written by Omeros, November 14, 2009
More fool you if your ten year-old niece hits puberty and turns out to like girls. How would you react if you overheard her saying to her friends, "what's up with that reactionary uncle of mine who takes such a keen interest in what everyone else is doing behind closed doors? Probably doesn't get any!"
Mr. Omeros...
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
I happen to be a christian, a follower of Jesus Christ; and I can tell you as the uncle to many of my nieces n nephews, I am an example to them in the way I live life, married too to a lovely wife; if any of my nieces or nephews chose differently, that wud be their choice; at least I done my work in educating them; But I have to tell you this too....
Mr. Omeros pt.2
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
Mr. Omeros, How absurd! that human beings, thanks to our homosexual brothers and sister, we are the only species that are stubbornly willing to practice sexual activities that ultimately can lead to the end of our very own species; and after this we claim to be reasonable .....how absurd!! Providence have mercy on us!!! No wonder, knowledge alone unguided, can never be enough for humans....we also need sexual morals;
Mr. Omeros pt.3
written by Moses Luyinda, November 14, 2009
the original morals not today's modern fabricated sexual morals besides, all known major religions agree on the immorality of homosexuality. Mr Omeros, spare me the HYPOCRACY charge; are u kidding me? who is taking a keen interest in this debate? Its even laughable n very low....as a follower of christ, sexuality was never a publicly debated topic, but thanks to our gay brothers n sisters, who hunger for acceptance, followers of christ like me are forced to discuss topics as these in our attempt to save the next generation; Mr Omeros, I can never HATE you if u are gay or any other person....but guess wat? I can pray for you even as you might seem to think the idea of faith is out-moded or .that you are an atheist!!
Mr. Luyinda
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
Mr. Luyinda, being a devotee to Jesus Christ need not involve that devotee in having to abhor homosexuality. Only the most literalist interpretations of Old Testament scripture hold to the belief that homosexual behaviour is incompatible with the virtuous life. You need not steep your nieces and nephews in Old Testament morality and then call that a Christian education because it isn't. The Anglican Church in the US has got over its gay hang-ups. Why can't you?
Mr. Luyinda pt. 2
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
If consenting adults of the same sex wish to have sex with one another, that ought to be entirely their affair - certainly not the state's. Given the rise and rise of the human population I think it, to put it mildly, unlikely that the activities of homosexuals will arrest and reverse that trend and I hardly think your aversion to homosexuality to be borne of a selfless and altruistic purpose to save mankind from itself. I don't take you to be that grandiose. Rather I think your aversion arises from a socially and culturally ingrained belief, informed in no small part by your religion, that homosexuality is inherently wrong and must be proscribed.
Mr. Luyinda pt. 3
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
You criticise what you regard as new-fangled morality for the fact that homosexuals seek acceptance. Yet morality has never been static. It changes with social development. In the time of Christ, it was acceptable to stone your wife if she was found to be an adulterer. In the plantation societies of the Americas it was, until the latter part of the 19th century, perfectly acceptable to exploit slave labour. In the UK it was, until 1991, entirely legal to rape your wife. Our age no longer considers honour killing, slavery or spousal rape acceptable and is much the better for it.
Mr. Luyinda - pt 4
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
Spare me your prayers.
Mr Omeros....and this is my last reply to you.
written by Moses Luyinda, November 15, 2009
"Morality has never been static"; Mr. Omeros, I specifically pointed out SEXUAL MORALITY.....and I had a reason in specifying the morality I was talking about; and what did u do? You chose to generalise my point in arguing the morality of slavery, n rape, and how these were once acceptable in the past ages. But that aside, I agree with you that what goes on in the bedroom between 2 consenting adults does not concern the state or me or you for that matter.
Mr. Omeros
written by Moses Luyinda, November 15, 2009
But it starts to concern all of us, believe me or not, it begins to concern the state as well, when suddenly in the name of diversity, children in schools are taught a new sexual morality; and it wud be fantastically inbelievable if you fail to see my point; and by the way, the anglican church has never accepted homosexuality, and yes, the gay movement, got wat it always wanted; to split the aglican church, tho Mr. Omeros u feign not to know this. The church, the watchers of morality, is still strong and will remain as such! Faithful people still pray for you...and you can do much about that mr Omeros.
...
written by solomon, November 15, 2009
sex for pocreation only?
these debates have been argued before in the west.
Condoms bust ?
Are some of you willing to go there ?
what of: Sex with women in menapuse , what of sex with women who have no uteraus , what of masterbation, oral sex or indeed sodomy between a man and his wife
enough already
Mr. Luyinda
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
Mr. Luyinda, that you do not consider spousal rape and honour killing (having the right to murder your wife because she is an adultress) to be matters of sexual morality says much about the kind of moralist you are. If you do not think spousal rape and honour killing - the ultimate acts of sexual violence against women - to be connected in any way to a society's sexual politics, then there's not much to be said for you other than that your values are antediluvian. To think that you have influence over children frightens me.
Mr. Luyinda pt. 2
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
Please do not misrepresent the dynamic of the debate. Nobody in Uganda is seriously agitating for children to be taught that homosexuality is a normal behaviour (though I wish they would, because it is). Most homosexuals in Uganda would simply be happy if the state did not reserve the right to kill them. That's the somewhat initial stage at which the "national conversation" (that you do not think worth having) has reached in this country.
Mr. Luyinda pt. 3
written by Omeros, November 15, 2009
As to your assertions about the Anglican Church in the US, since the House of Deputies and the House of Bishops voted decisively to elect Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire, well aware as each body was of the cleric's homosexuality (of which he has made no secret since the 70s), I would take the fact of his election to signal unambiguously that the Anglican Church in the US is over its gay hang-ups. Wouldn't you?
Old Testament
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 15, 2009
Mr Luyinda is really incorrigible on this point. He should keep an open mind especially on biblical interpretation. Many Christians - especially those called conservative evangelicals pick and chose in their interpretation of the Old Testament. The same Chapter in the book of Leviticus that condemns same sex relations also prescribes the death sentence (by stoning) for those who insult their mother or father. The same book regards issues such as emission of sparm, menstruation, and touching a corpse as rendering one not hygenically unclean but as ritually unclean. We do not follow the OT here, do we?
Good Article Mr. Mwenda
written by Omufuruki, November 16, 2009
Nsaba Buturo, who was once part of Obote's Murderous groups now wants to appear a saint. Indeed Andrew, should we investigate whether Bahati performs Oral sex? or whether Nsaba Buturo Masturbates? or whether Pastor Ssempa actuallly uses ONLY the missionary style (Pun intended)?????
As for those who say Homosexuals are in our schools teaching our kids bad habits. Is it then ok for heterosexuals, the so called straight people to go and tell our 8-10 year olds to have (heterosexual) relations?
And using the Bible! Who told You we are all Christians? Why shoould a mis-translated collection of pre historic literature be used to run a country which claims to be diverse and promote freedom of worship?
Some of You, You have nothing to say (whether this is due to lack of brains or failure to use them I cannot tell). Your reasoning are so shallow that You resort to Merely attacking Mr. Mwenda's personality and You fail to even challege a single one of his arguments.
Tell them Andrew!
written by SKZ, November 16, 2009
Thanks Andrew, for educating all on what most people have cowed away from. I like the facts about Homosexuality in the animal kingdom, down to the detail you included on the number of species in Animalia. Most of the former commenters riled by your post are hiding behind the walls of denial. The anti-homosexuality bill is pure evil, propesterously so, and should not be used as a tool to annihilate homosexuals! Even a watered down version of the bill will not do. How about no bill at all?
Brilliant article, Andrew once again you have excelled!
written by KKamese, November 16, 2009


You can say whatever you want and make all comments that those who do not
oppose the gay people are gay, but you are fighting what will be acceptable
in the future. In England sexual activity between males was first
decriminalised in 1967 and in America it too was once a criminal offence,
but now it isn’t, hence my first sentence. Not that it’s the same, but
women were ignored, and then came female emancipation this was a campaign
for them to get heard and it worked, so the gay will one day go down that
route and have their voices heard. If you had told our fore fathers that
women one day would be wearing trousers with some earning more than most
men do, they would have thought you were mad, but hey it’s happening.

The issue here is that Ugandans don’t want to mind their own business, what
has someone’s bedroom antics as longs as it’s not rape, got to do with the
rest of society?

Brilliant article, Andrew once again you have excelled! cont...
written by KKamese, November 16, 2009
I have lived in London for more than 9 years and over the years I have
worked with a couple of gay/lesbian people and I can tell you that they are
just ordinary people (of course not when they are in the privacy of their
bedrooms with their partners). There I don’t think its right, but that’s my
opinion and there is nothing I can do about it. They are human, some are
even more intelligent than those who want them hanged or imprisoned for
life, there are many successful gay people out there, and so what’s the
fuss about?

I know some shallow minded person is going to post a petty message in
retaliation to this, but all I can say is bring it on, moron in denial.
Gays vs bill
written by Watcher, November 16, 2009
I really don't like the gay practice but i hate the bill much more. It's barbaric.
...
written by Juma Kato, November 16, 2009
Kamese , in the 9 years you have lived in London , have you read about men who prefer sex with children ?

Have you seen teachers who only want to have sex with their pupils ? Have you read about men who like having sex with their pets ? Have you read about a man who has three kids with his own daughter ?

Have you met with muslims who have been told that having more than one wife is a crime in UK ?

What does the London law say to this kind of sexuality ? Should Uganda send Bahati to tell UK what to do about this ?

Kamese interpreted positively
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 16, 2009
Mr Juma Kato, indeed there are men in London and all over Britain that want to have sex with under-age children. They are called paedophiles. But such practice is a crime in UK for which you will spend a long spell in prison and on release be subject to police monitoring. Paedophiles are there in Uganda also, as you know very well. People have carnal knowledge of animals - that is not confined to one race or nation. British law criminalises bigamy or polygamy, although men have mistresses etc. But I think, interpreted in the best possible light, Kamese is saying that once British law criminalised gays, but society has moved on. In any case the law against homosexuality was introduced in Uganda by the British.
That is the point !
written by Juma Kato, November 16, 2009
Kamese , you just made the point, thank you very much . Bigamy and polygamy are criminilised acts of the kind of sexaulity that the British public does not accept . It will be pointless, therefore , for Bahati to call the British people names for criminalising something that is actually more normal than men havinfg sex with other men .

The other point is that the presence of paedophiles in every society should never be used as a reason to justify this practice . Its the same logic that allows Bahati to say that in Uganda , homosexuality is a pervasion that must be criminalized .

Its a pity that you guys commend USA for abolishing slaverly , and yet you still think and behave as if the West owns your heads .
Mwenda-Great article!
written by Munesa, November 16, 2009
Mwenda-Very courageous of you to 'swim against the tide' on this issue. I find that most Africans tend to be homophobes because they have extreme views on the issue of sexuality. It goes deeper than just the issue of homosexuality. We tend to be shy away on any discussion involving sex,so the graphic nature imbued in any talk of man on man action or the images it conjures are just enough to shut people's minds off of any civil debate. But that was also the case in the US and other developed nations,where AIDS was first attributed to the gay community. Incidentally many ignorant westerners have shifted the blame of the AIDS epidemic to Africa. We are undergoing an evolution of ideas in Africa,but we are held back by culture and religion. Of late Africans are starting to talk about sex and thus the conversation on homosexuality. There is still fear that once you present a differing opinion from the mainstream gay bashing norm,you will be chastised and labelled 'one of them'


Homo debate
written by Bwayo, November 16, 2009
Mwenda, just to tickle you a bit. I was wondering..... since it is said that part of the reason why the government is pushing this bill is the homo lobby in western capitals.

Some of us would like Nsaba Buturo and company to include a clause in their bill that supports Polygamy and polyandry since both lifestyles do not stand for any sexual practices that are against the order of nature , and after all would boost the population of the planet .
Homa debate
written by Bwayo, November 16, 2009
Mwenda,

Being a christian, and having read something about how Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed because of among other things their homo tendencies. I just wanted to point out that only Lot survived the fire. His wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying the angels' instructions

The only upright man found standing and having survived Sodom was a paedophile a defiler and commited incest with his own daughters. On the scale of one to ten, I think I give Lot 10 for good behaviour compared to the Sodomites. You can see that if the good Lord could forgive Lot and let him survive Sodom, Nsaba Buturo and company would hang the man for defilement and incest. Who knows better? God or David Bahati?
The Sin of Sodom
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 16, 2009
On homosexuality and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah - just for purposes of interpretation (and not making an ethical judgement on the appropriateness or otherwise same sex relations) many theological commentaries say the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality, but possibly homosexual rape and denial of hospitality. Among the ancient people of Israel to whom Lot belonged hospitality to strangers was regarded very highly. So, the idea that two men to whom Lot had played host should be sexually assaulted by vagabonds from Lot's society was a great evil that Lot must resist. The story is as much a commentary on Lot as it is on Sodom and Gomorrah. Another strand in the Sodom and Gomorrah story is that the visitors in Lot's home were actually angels disguised as humans. The story has allusions to ancient myths about men's inordinate desire to have sexual relations with angels.
Traditions too are embracing the science of enlightenment
written by Ocheto, November 16, 2009
Gone are the days when people, especially institutionalised religions lived in the dark shadows of politics of ignorance and mythology. It now doesn't take them countless centuries, like it took the church to apologise for barbarically beheading Galileo for daring to scientifically prove that the earth is round, to see the light. Politicians are diverting attention from the real issues of the day - such as poverty and disease, and environmental degradation and underdevelopment - by dwelling on minor issues - such as homophobia, miscegenation - when criminal sociopaths and miscreants are wrecking wanton havoc to society and the planet with impunity.
WHY EUROPE AND THE US LOST THEIR BATTLE AGAINST GAYS; THEY SLEPT!! AFRICA AND UGANDA WAKE UP!!!
written by Dr. Kamwami, November 17, 2009
In the last 20 years, the gay life style has permeated all levels of society the world over; yes, we live in a global village and I urge africans and ugandans to take out some time and study the motives and the proverbial arguments of the global gay movement; christians alone can not do it; Moslems, hindus, buddhists, all people of faith should fight this good fight. In their attempt to look like victims, which they never were, gays paint christians and all their detractors, as aggressive by comparing them to the worst injustices in human history; a trick that is also being used and repeated here in this forum. Andrew Mwenda is using it, rev kasibante and his friends also!!

WHY EUROPE AND THE US LOST THEIR BATTLE AGAINST GAYS; THEY SLEPT!! AFRICA AND UGANDA WAKE UP!!!pt.2
written by Dr. Kamwami, November 17, 2009
My point here is; Africans and Ugandans, wake up!!...Coz America n Europe slept and wen they woke up; their entire education sector (pity the school children !!!!)was in the hands of gays, their media and film industries in the same homosexual hands; and now the churches, marriage institutions have not survived either; does the idea of gay olympics make sense? gay universities, does the idea of gay churches make sense? Yes, its happening in Europe and America!!The sins of yesterday are celebrated n honoured as virtues in this way when nations sleep and fail to act!!!
WHY EUROPE AND THE US LOST THEIR BATTLE AGAINST GAYS; THEY SLEPT!! AFRICA AND UGANDA WAKE UP!!!pt.3
written by Dr. Kamwami, November 17, 2009
And today in Europe and America no one, (and its the majority of Americans and Europeans) dares say a thing about gays; and guess why? Europeans and Americans slept at a time when action was needed; Europeans and Americans, are only left with the voice of the vote; US and European courts,and parliaments have already sold out to gays; Judges and Parliaments, are making laws that are "homofying" their very own societies largely due to campaign funds and the activism by gays; cheap politicians!!!! what africans and ugandans should not repeat is this same mistake! Lets wake and not sell out!!!
WHY EUROPE AND THE US LOST THEIR BATTLE AGAINST GAYS; THEY SLEPT!! AFRICA AND UGANDA WAKE UP!!!pt.4
written by Dr. Kamwami, November 17, 2009
The ugandan MP who suggested this bill should go back and do his homework; because gays argue by pointing to his kind of extremism...and its a disservice to all people of faith, when this MP's extreme intolerance is used by gays, to argue for the advance the gay ideology!!!!
...
written by Andrew Mwenda, November 17, 2009
I am deeply impressed by most of this debate because it has largely been focused on the issues without degenerating into insults, personal attacks and name calling. This is especially so for Moses Luyinda whose exchanges with Emeros are enlightening and informative even though I feel Moses relied too much on this prejudice for his arguments. I always ignore people who degenerate into personal attacks (and there are a couple of them above) precisely because it is evidence that they have nothing really to say on the issues.
Personal attacks
written by Juma Kato, November 17, 2009
Mwenda , it was not for indulgement in personal attacks , you would be an unknown journalist . In case you have not noticed it , it you GAYs that always attack the person of anyone who does not agree with your sick sexuality . You should check out what the homosexuals say about . Re. Ssempa and others .
In your article , its implied that no one can oppose homosexuality unless he/ she is homophobic . You probably dont realize that this is name-calling .

I will suggest that it is because a lot of people in west fear to be accused of suffering from phobias that are associated with or result from prejudecies that most of them chose to tolarate homosexuality , which also means that if these people were as free from hypocricy as most Africans are , they would call homosexuality by its real name : a perversion .
Can`t he help ?
written by Juma Kato, November 17, 2009

Somewhere up there , Rev. Amos Kasibante warns someone against mis-interpreting the old testament .

I think that the warning should be followed by the correct interpretation from the Rev. himself . Is he saying that every time the West decides to " move on " there should be a new interpretattion of the scriptures ?
is homosexuiality our society's biggest eveil?
written by beema, November 17, 2009
at the risk of sounding diversionary from the above debate, i dare write this. why doesnt Bahati and co invest their energies into fighting real evils in Uganda like corruption and our leaders (or are they rulers?) self aggrindisement. im neither gay nor homophobic but to be honest i would cringe if i found out ma young bro is gay for example. however, i dont see why the country shd criminalise homosexuals yet we have biggger issues here like corruption and theft of public funds. talk of diversionary politics in banana republics
Mr. Kato and Mr. Luyinda,..you are onto something....
written by Dr. Kamwami., November 17, 2009
I repeat, because America and Europe slept; because America and Europe, failed to stand up to gay activists in their courts of law, in their parliaments, in their science departments, in their schools, their churches, media etc. ; the pandora box that is homosexuality, was opened long ago because descent people of faith in America, and Europe slept; Africa and Uganda should wake up, the Rev. Kasibantes of this world are so bouyed and delusioned by their victories in America, Europe and else where, and now they think; Africa is their next stop. Personally, I am convinced that, Africa and Uganda are much tougher than Rev. Kasibante and friends think. Monied gays, may try to buy off a ugandan politician or a journalist etc here and there; but in their heart of hearts, African societies will not support or celebrate homosexual tendencies, like Europé and America is doing today!
Mr. Kato and Mr. Luyinda,..you are onto something..pt.2.
written by Dr. Kamwami., November 17, 2009
Andrew Mwenda, I agree with you on a million other issues, but on this one, you and all who think like yourself on the gay issue are engaging in no new arguments....all the arguments you make here, we have heard before; Rev. Kasibante, the arguments related to the re-interpretion of biblical scripture; we know they are nothing but a cynical attempt by lesbian and gay christian activist writers to justify their sexual anomalies; these gay and lesbian christians are inadvertently or on purpose, destroying the christian faith all the while pretending to be christians;
Mr. Kato and Mr. Luyinda,..you are onto something..pt.3
written by Dr. Kamwami., November 17, 2009
If you have not read some of the books by gay activists, you would not believe what these seemingly reasonable gay activist christian authors, for lack of a better word, say about Jesus, or what they insinuate about the prophets in the old testament in their attempt to "modernise the bible" and justify their clearly unnatural and unchristian sexual orientation; and believe me its a sad effort on the part of those gay christians but I even doubt whether they deserve the christian label anymore.....but its not us to judge, that we may not be judged....but I am tempted to do so! Incidentally, the word gay means happy...happiness; statistics tells us that, most gays are anything but happy!!!
Answering Beema
written by Juma Kato, November 17, 2009

Beema is wrong to think that when someone like Bahati tables a motion against homosexuality , that other evils are not fought . Just because Beema has not heard of other domectic laws involving husbands and their wives rights , does not mean that they dont exist .

Besides , in USA , one often hears a lot of politicians talking about abortion , gay marriages , gun ownsership rights etc . Does this mean that USA does not have other evils , such as homelessness , drug abuse, corruption etc do deal with ?

If anything , as the Obamas were out there powering all their energies into supporting homosexual marriages , curruption was eating the economy away . I wonder whether Beema knows recognises the significancy of this observation .
That is the whole point
written by Ocheto, November 17, 2009
So Uganda should also waste time debating non-issues just because the USA is doing it ? Africa and Uganda is full of imitators. The US can afford to fritter its time on gay issues but uganda cannot. Bill Clinton wasted his presidency on dont ask dont tell gays in military, and by the time he woke up the republicans had taken over the governing agenda.
Wnat point ?
written by Juma Kato, November 17, 2009
Did Mwenda " waste time " when he wrote the article that we are commenting on ? I think not.

If Mwenda can cover several issues in one publication , I think it naive to imagine that all that Ugandans do is to debate this particular non-issue . Its also contradictory to state that USA can afford to spend its time on gay issues , and at the same time rebuke Clinton for wasting his presidency on gay issues .

I think that the above writer is not aware that its the gay movement and its sick supporters in Uganda that is pushing this debate ,Otherwise , the law , as it stands now , totally criminalizes homosexuality .
So , who looses if Bahati keeps quiet ?

Traditionally Africans have never killed anybody for being gay
written by Ocheto, November 17, 2009
There is no african tradition that criminalises homosexuality which by the way is near non-existent. That is what makes it a non-issue. Now for an MP to waste Ugandan taxpayers money on an issue that shouldn't even count to such a grand scale, while more teething national problems such as poverty and corruption are brushed aside is ridiculous. It is waste of time as far the government and parliament is using it to divert attention from the real issues. What Andrews writes does not make law nor does it cost tax payers money and time. Your mixing the parliamentary national debate with internet chatter. The law is draconian and is a diversionary tact by the bankrupt corrupt politicians. Africans do not kill gays: if they are there. They leave them alone. Africa is not that paranoid of gays.
Traditionally Africans have never killed anybody for being gay part 2
written by Ocheto, November 17, 2009
To the contrary it is Museveni, the Mulokole, who is pushing a Christian Fundamentalist agenda on Uganda because they sponsor his dictatorial presidency. When he got to power 23 years ago he told Ugandans that he was ushering in fundamental change. The only fundamental change Museveni has brought to Uganda is extreme christian fundamentalism. That is why they enacting draconian laws: to satisfy they international extreme fundamentalists. He and Bahati are christian jhadists.
Debating a good cause has never been time wastage!
written by Moses Luyinda, November 17, 2009
Its the usual arguments again; gays and their supporters tend to point to other ills facing the human race as more deserving of the nation's attention; only in order to divert the debate, while at the same time they take the opportunity to advance their ideology; Yes, Uganda has many issues. I, like Mr. Kato and others, believe all issues should be debated; this applies to poverty, disease, corruption - spiritual and material corruption. I am glad that we have smart enough people who have found the gay ideologues out - think of them as promoters of a moral corruption!
Debating a good cause has never been time wastage!pt.2
written by Moses Luyinda, November 17, 2009
I am happy that Andrew Mwenda has provided the forum for this discussion; unfortunately, I am also grossly disappointed that he sided with gays on this social issue; especially considering Andrew was raised and brought up in Uganda; and why hold such foreign social views, Mr, Mwenda? In Andrew's case, having studied abroad does not explain it; because many ugandans have studied abroad too but still maintained their culture while away from their native homeland.
Debating a good cause has never been time wastage!p.3
written by Moses Luyinda, November 17, 2009
Mr. Ocheto I agree with you to some extent; but I stop at your assumption that somehow the Balokole are behind this "draconian" law by that MP; I can tell you the balokole are themselves fighting the same fights, we are debating here; gays in their churches passing off as Pastors; so the gay issue is much serious than meets the eye, to you, Mr.Ocheto!!
@ New Springtime and fellow travellers
written by Omeros, November 18, 2009
@ New Springtime - while trawling through the "meta-analysis" of research conducted by the APA, did you encounter the amicus brief it filed with the California Court in 2007 together with, inter alios, the NASW which reads thus: "Sexual orientation has proved to be generally impervious to interventions intended to change it, which are sometimes referred to as “reparative therapy.” No scientifically adequate research has shown that such interventions are effective or safe. Moreover, because homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality, national mental health organizations do not encourage individuals to try to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Therefore, all major national mental health organizations have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation."?
@ New Springtime and fellow travellers pt. 2
written by Omeros, November 18, 2009
I quite understand why you should not want to draw attention to the passage in my post above given how inconvenient it is to your view that homosexuality is unnatural and, so far as Africa and Uganda are concerned, culturally alien. But you will forgive me for thinking your representation of the position of the APA intellectually dishonest.
Corrupt materialistic mulokoleism
written by Ocheto, November 18, 2009
Gays have run empires or kingdoms from time immemorial. But what is now different is that the church, which is not a monolith, has become a materialistic, corrupt mulokole-ism. There is even a reverand who shamelessly calls himself, Dollar, and lives a lavish, onstentatious, lifestyle claiming its all ordained by God. And he is a frequent preacher in many African countries. It shouldn't be suprising that the same corrupt mores and perverted agendas, prevalent in political institutions, have gained currency in churches, including the socalled mega-churches.
The more things change
written by Omeros, November 18, 2009
In many ways, Ocheto, nothing has changed. The Catholic bishops of medieval and renaissance Italy cloaked themselves in fine raiment and dwelt in sumptuous palaces while they preached to their peasant congregations - their tenants whom they aggressively tithed - the virtue of poverty.
Point ?
written by Juma Kato, November 19, 2009
Whats your point Oremos ?
Point ?
written by Juma Kato, November 19, 2009
Whats your point Oremos ?
My point?
written by Omeros, November 19, 2009
My point in which post, Mr. Jima Kato?
Thumbs for Mwenda
written by PAL, November 19, 2009
I want to add that as someone who grew up in rular Uganda, I know a few people who are known to be gay, yet they have never been to school, have never been outside their rular communities, but they are known to try to seduce men for sex.. I was touched though by one rular woman's comment when a talk about them was being discussed. To quote her words, "It is how they are created... I don't think it is their fault". She has never been to school, and has never been outside that village. I want people to know that we are talking about people who could be our Dads, sons, Mums, daughters, and neighbours. When we are condemning them to being "dirty" and "abnormal" and pass death sentences on them, when covering ourselves in Christianity to condemn people who have not hurt anyone, but are just gay, I want you to remember the suffering of Christ on the Cross so that no one was crucufied anymore...
You are spot-on
written by collins, November 20, 2009
Mwenda you are right! It's high time people respected minorities rights!
Point
written by Juma Kato, November 20, 2009
Oremos , your point in New Springtime and fellow travellers . It is all a puzzle .
Ignorant Ocheto
written by Juma Kato, November 20, 2009


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ochetos comment shows that this man does not understand what " tradional law " means .
Its not correct to state that there is no Afrian traditional law that criminalises homosexuality . In deed there is !
In almost all western Uganda , the old traditional law punished that who were caught in perverted sexual practices by hanging on a tree . In Buganda , if a man was caught with another man , both would be treated as social outcasts , the same way as men who had sex with animals or had raped their own daughters or mothers . Even today , men who are found guilty of bizarre sexual practices are not neccessarily killed .





Ignorant Ocheto
written by Juma Kato, November 20, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This , though , should not mean that the traditional law does not criminalize such practices. Ocheto should be informed that traditional law punishes offenders in many different ways .
Ignorant Ocheto adds that in Uganda , homosexuality is almost non-existent and therefore a non-issue.
Apparently , he does not see that Mwendas article is all about stressing that homosexuals do exist and must have a voice and rights . Actually , Mwenda desperately tries to prove his point by speculating that in Uganda , 5 % of the population is gay . One wonders how these homosexuals can hope to be heard if one of them says that they are non-existent ?
Tip for Ocheto
written by Juma Kato, November 20, 2009


In my opinion , in Uganda , we have more men who prefer having sex with pigs , chicken , cows , babies , their own children , dis-abled / deformed women , etc , than men who want to sleep with men .We also now have a very big number of lonely women who turn to their step under age sons for sex . One vist to Luzira will be enough to get the data.

If it is about rights , existence and numbers , we should start with this larger group.
Easy
written by Ocheto, November 20, 2009
Mark Twain on lies: there are three kinds of lies; there are lies; there are damn lies; and there are statistics. Five percent is an arbitrary figure. As for traditions: Kabaka Luwanga was gay but who could have dared hang him on tree. Instead he killed boys in his palace who spurned him. Those boys went to become Uganda Martyrs. They probably hanged powerless people.
Point
written by Omeros, November 20, 2009
Jima Kato, my point in those two posts is simply that the very mental health organisation that New Springtime claims now accepts homosexuality to be a treatable illness in fact holds the opposite to be true - namely, that homosexuality is a normal human sexual behaviour and that it is dangerous to attempt to alter homosexual orientation by means of therapy, since that often involves exploiting feelings of guilt which undermines the mental health of the recipient of the therapy. New Springtime is being mischievous and invents facts that support his political view in the hope that no-one will check his narrative and expose his claims for the fraudulent blather they are.
Reply to Juma Kato's Query on Biblical Interpretation
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 21, 2009
@ Juma Kato - about Biblical interpretation. He asks: "Is he saying that every time the West decides to " move on there should be a new interpretattion of the scriptures?" No, I am not suggesting any such thing. What I highlighted is the fact that of the variety of interpretations that there are of the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. In other words, the traditional interpretation is not the only one, and scholars who give a different interpretition (called exegesis in academic speak) do not all come from the West. As a matter of fact there is more conservative/traditional interpretation of the Bible in the West e.g. in USA than there is in Uganda! As to the suggestion of moving on to a new interpretation of the Scriptures, please read on (below)
Reply to Juma Kato's Query (contd)
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 21, 2009
The biblical book of Ezekiel Chapter 16:49 has this to say about the Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah:

"This was the iniquity of your sister, Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, over-abundance of bread, abundance, and leisure, but they did not extend their hand to the poor". In other words, a later Jewish prophet, Ezekiel, explains to his contemporaries what the sin of Sodom actually was, and this is a biblical, not Western, interpretation. In other words the fixation that Sodom was about homosexuality could be wrong.
Free to interpret ?
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009


Rev . Kasibante , if the west is free to interpret the bible is its own way , Ugandans should be asfree to interpret " sexuality " in their own way . This means that UK , Sweden and USA should not be threatning Uganda with sanctions because we have decided that homosexuality is a perversion that infriges on our own traditional and customary rights.

Sodom
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009

Rev .Kasibante should know that is helps to keep things in proper context. If the subject is homosexuality , refering to Sodom is not a fixation but a qualifier . I am sure that the Rev knows , for example , that in the same bible , the name Jude is not always about betrayal.
I get it now
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009
Oremos , I now understand your reasoning . You should help out the paedophilles because many of them will argue that no ammount of therapy can alter their sexuality . To them , it is normal for one to be only sexually attracted to children . So , the problem lies with those who make the children feel guility by telling them that what the adults to to them is bad .
Since when did lesbian theology become the norm in Christianity?
written by Moses Luyinda, November 21, 2009
Rev. Kasibante,! Rev. Kasibante! , Rev. you are like many of the gay christians in the US and Europe; you searched the scriptures for justification of homosexuality, that most unchristian behaviour; and when you did not succeed, you resorted to re-interpretation and distortion of the conventional understandings of the bible. I am glad that the church in Uganda, does not read the bible the way you Rev. Kasibante read it - that modern lesbian theology wont do for christianity and Christians in Uganda!
Its the job !
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009
Luyinda , Rev Kasibante works for the white church . He has to follow his masters wherever they take him otherwise he has no job . If he was in Namirembe , its most likely that his interpretation would be the same as all the other Reverands in the Church of Uganda . I think that you notice that he plays safe by not committing himself either way .
Jima Kato
written by Omeros, November 21, 2009
Mr Kato, no doubt many a paedophile will claim that his/her feelings of attraction to children are involuntary. Nevertheless, the law criminalises paedophilia - correctly - because children, given their tender years, are not competent to give their consent to participate in a sexual encounter. Because it is understood that children are suggestible and are inclined to defer to the authority of adults, the law takes the paternalistic attitude that children cannot give their consent to have sex. By contrast, homosexual adults who consent to have sex with one another ought to be beyond the reproach of the law.
Reply to Luyinda and Juma Kato
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 21, 2009
Messrs Moses Luyinda and Juma Kato - I quoted the Bible to you (Ezekiel 16:49). IThat is not the interpretation of the West. It is a clear verse from the Bible itself. The fact that you make the wild allegation that you make means you either just wish to win points or are not being intellectually honest. I would tell the Church of Uganda exactly the same that I write here, and I think some of you misrepresent the position of the Church of Uganda, which I know only too well.
Reply to Luyinda and Juma Kato
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 21, 2009
Furthermore, to say that Rev Kasibante works for the white church and says what his masters want him to say is presumption of the worst kind. I uphold the Resolutions of the Lambeth Conference 1998, which the Church of Uganda also upholds. That apart, the C of E for which I work embraces a variety of opinions and encourages people to think and hold a view.
An Unbelievable 1.5 million Ugandans are gay - yes 50 % of Kampalans are gay! according to a research cited by Andrew Mwenda, here!
written by Moses Luyinda, November 21, 2009
Did Andrew say 5% - 10 % of Uganda's populations perhaps is gay? Where did you get this?This is the trick ( trick because, upon further scrutiny the percentage number was found to be false!!) gays tried in America to create the impression that they were some kind of minority. And here the article by Andrew Mwenda tries the same trick. Do you know what 5% or 10 % of 30 M ugandans is? Yes, 5% is 1.5 Million gay Ugandans and at the extreme 10 % is 3 Million ( meaning all kampalans are gay) .; In modest terms though, 5 % literally means half the population of Kampala,( there are 3 million kampalans) since most gays would be found here; does any one believe this piece of trickery - 5% of Ugandans are gay?

On homosexuality and its place in the church and the world - food for thought!
written by Moses Luyinda, November 21, 2009
If gay theology ever wins, a feat unlikely; people will flee from the church; thereby weakening the church, this being the ultimate aim of the gay movement, even as gays will never openly confess to this! but as convinced as I am, I believe the queer theology to be unholy; It can never stand before God, the bible tells us; it will never stand in the eyes of the people of faith of this world; gays may have split the anglican church; but it was here that people woke up and they are still awake!! In africa and the rest of the christian world; people know that gay rhetoric in the christian church is as bad as it is in the other areas of life it tries to infiltrate; gay rhetoric is bad in schools,bad in universities, bad in the military; bad in the media; but ultimately because of the unnaturalness of homosexuality I believe that people in Europe and America will some day wake up....and uncover the myth of the "oppressed" minority gays.
Its subjective
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009

Oremos , you cannot prove to a paedophile that every child lacks the mental capacity to give concent to participate in sexual encounters . From a paedophiles point of view ,criminalizing their sexuality is the wrong way to go about it . They may ,therefore,use your logic that it is those who " exploit the feelings of guilt " in the childs brain that are to blame. Dont you get the irony ?
Educate us !
written by Juma Kato, November 21, 2009

Maybe , some of us dont know ´the position of the Church of Uganda . Please Rev-Kasibante tell us why they sacked Ssenyonjo Or why they dont accept the choice of gay Bishops like the white churches do .
You will also tell us where the Bibble says that homosexuality is normal
Rev. Kasibante tell us the truth; Lambeth 1998? come on man!!! Lambeth 2008, was the conference that split the anglican church!!
written by Moses Luyinda, November 21, 2009
Rev. Kasibante you are very economical with the facts yourself. Its only last year , at the lambeth conference 2008, Rev. Kasibante do you honestly not remember where the church of uganda stood on ordaining gay bishops? Come on man! are we to believe you when you refer to the lambeth conference of 1998, a decade ago? come on Rev.!!!
It's not subjective
written by Omeros, November 21, 2009
Mr. Kato, indeed you may well not be able to demonstrate to a paedophile that there is any good sense in criminalising his/her sexual proclivities. Nevertheless the law does not recognise the right of an adult to have sex with a child because, for perfectly sound public policy reasons, a child has no standing to give his or her consent to have sex. Would you be willing to countenance a situation whereby a child, necessarily a person of limited life experience and rational capacity, under the conditions of hostile cross-examination in a court of law, was made to prove that his/her consent was not properly given to a sexual encounter with a more experienced, predatory adult who claimed that the child's consent was given? I would hope not. Thankfully the law does not entertain such a situation.
It's not subjective pt 2
written by Omeros, November 21, 2009
The law irons out the vagaries of "subjectivity" by sensibly presuming that a child is not competent to give its consent. On the other hand, two adults who freely consent to have sex with one another (whether in a homosexual or heterosexual encounter) should not earn the attentions of the criminal law.
Reply to Juma Kato and Moses Luyinda
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
Messrs Juma Kato and Moses Luyinda - first on the Rt Rev Christopher Senyonjo. According to information available to me, the Bishop was not stopped from officiating or preaching in the Church of Uganda on account of his views on homosexuality (much as some of his views on this matter were at variance with those of other Bishops) but for other reasons. You can check this out the facts with him or with the authorities in the Church of Uganda.

About Lambeth 1998 and 2008 respectively - the latter did not make any new resolutions . So it was the former (199smilies/cool.gif rather than the latter (200smilies/cool.gif that was the make or break. What I know is that the Archbishop of Canterbury did not invite Gene Robinson to it. Also, many Bishops from Churches in Africa that are opposed to the ordination of a gay Bishop by the Episcopal Church of America did attend Lambeth 2008.
Reply to Juma Kato and Moses Luyinda
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
Don't know why or how those two faces (symbols) planted themselves there. Mr Juma Kato, you ask "why the Church of Uganda does not accept gay Bishops like the white churches do" (your words). Actually, the Church of England for which I work does not accept gay Bishops either. And there are many churches in USA including in the Episcopal Church that do not accept gay Bishops. That is why sweeping statements mislead.
So rev. Kasibante, you knew all the while; but still..
written by Moses Luyinda, November 22, 2009
True the african bishops voted with their feet....they walked out because they could not seriously embrace the idea of a fellow bishop to be so indisciplined as to the misrepresentation the place of homosexuality according to the bible. Now the pope is inviting african bishops to join the catholic church! You see,....that is where I conclude that the anglican church is split thanks to a few gay christians in its midst! Rev. Kasibante Its absurd, am sorry! You say, you work for the english anglican church, we all glad for that; but your biblical interpretations worry some.
Now you know
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009
Oremus , now you know that laws are made to support a public policy . Now you understand that not every law makes sense to each and everyone every time . Now you know that in Uganda , a man sleeping with another man does make sense that is why the law does not recognise the right of every adult to have whatever kind of sex they want to have .
You are wrong Oremus !
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009
There are laws everywhere that criminalize some kinds of "Choises " even when such choises are concented by the adults involved . In Buganda , its against the law for one to marry someone from the same clan . In some communities , one is discouraged from marrying someone who is not a relative . In the West , more than two concenting adults cannot be marriade at the same time .Not even you homos are opposed to these laws .
Vague Reverand
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009
Rev Kasibante , please be clear for a change , are you now saying that the Church of England that you work for is also guilty of misinterpring the bible ? If they are opposed to chosing gay bishops , what is the basis of this rejection , in your opinion ?
Bishop Ssenynjo was sacked !
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009

"Pursuant to Canon 3:24.2 (a) (i) of the Provincial Canons of the Church of the Province of Uganda (1997), we presume that you have abandoned the exercise of the ministry to which you were ordained in the Church of Uganda by this formal admission to another religious body not in communion with the Church of Uganda," the press statement, signed by Orombi, said.

.
Ssenynjo was sacked-cont-
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009


"By your action, we accept your decision to formally leave and disaffiliate from the Church of Uganda. I have appealed to all bishops in the Church of Uganda, active and retired, and all clergy and lay leaders in the Church of Uganda, active and retired, and all Heads of Laity and Wardens of sub-parishes, parishes, Archdeaconries, and Dioceses to uphold and enforce this decision," Orombi added.

Be vague , if you like , but dont lie , Rev. Kasibante !


Why he was sacked
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009

Rev, Amos Kasibante says that it was for " other reasons " The fact is :

"For at least six years, Ssenyonjo has persisted in openly misrepresenting the teachings of Scripture. In so doing, he has been misleading the public on the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the historic teaching of the church on human sexuality that the Church of Uganda and the vast majority of the Christian world uphold."

According to Archbishop Orombi , Ssenyonjo had to be excommunicated .

Reply to Juma Kato and Moses Luyinda
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
Messrs Kato and Luyinda - I am not lying. It is actually you that misrepresent the facts, as I show here. Luyinda says the African Bishops boycotted Lambeth 2008. Not true. Bishops from Sudan, DRCongo, Ghana, and a Bishop from Kenya were there - and these are from churches that are/were opposed to the consecration of a gay Bishop. But they thought they would go and express their disagreement there. Kato, you got it right when you quoted that Bishop Senyonjo was 'excommunicated' FOR "formal admission to another religious body not in communion with the Church of Uganda" (the real reason!). Like I said before if you are seeking for clarification, you will get it. If you wish only to win points then that is bad faith. As to your question, Kato, about the Church of England misrepresenting the Bible, please read further:
Reply to Juma Kato and Moses Luyinda
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
How, Kato, is the C of E misrepresenting the Bible by upholding the resolutions of Lambeth '98. Don't understand what point you're making. Please, accept that the biblical and theological arguments on this matter are complex. Whatever the case- and here is the crunch - my position is that whether homosexuality is regarded as a sin or as immoral, same sex relations between consenting adults should not be criminalised. It is for this reason that I do not support the Anti-homosexuality bill with its draconian import.

You see, Kato, that I am neither vague nor lying. If you expect me respond to your questions, please not that there can be no break thorough once people resort to abusive language.
Still vague
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009
Reverand , I am not calling you names , but only pointing out that you are not telling the truth . Not many honest people in Uganda will believe that Ssenyonjos break up with the Church of Uganda started with his opening of his own church . He opened the church as a result of having a different view on how the Church of Uganda looked at the question of homosexuality . Look at the cause , not the consequence .
Did he ?
written by Juma Kato, November 22, 2009
Reverand , did Luyinda say that the African churches boycotted the Lambeth 2008 ? I thought he implied that although they were there , they protested and that is still the situation and the cause of the split as of today .

I accept that theological and bibilical argument is a complex matter . But then , you cannot run away from it . Jesus did not . He said the truth and was hanged for it . I would rather say that the sexual consent argument between adults is the complex one , because I dont know why prositution is criminalized in UK . If you Rev. Kasibante can agree to have sex with another man , why can he not agree to pay an adult woman for sex ?


Reply to Juma Kato
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
So, Juma Kato, you see that I did not twist things. You and I can go on arguing about Bishop Senyonjo and the reasons for this "ex communication". If you think you are better informed than I am on that particular matter, suit yourself. As for Mr Luyinda, he made a bland statement. He did not just imply, as you summise. What he has said is there to see. I am happy that you at least agree about the complexity of biblical interpretation. You might think I am running away from the homosexual issue. If I give you some background about the complex decision making in the Church, then you can draw analogies. Until the mid-1970's the Church of Uganda would not baptise any infant born out of wedlock (waiting until they could read for themselves). It argued that baptising such infants was against Scripture and Tradition (Read on)
Reply to Juma Kato (contd)
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 22, 2009
When the House of Bishops changed its understanding of Scripture and tradition, infants born out of wedlock were baptised. Many clergy who refused to comply with the new arrangement left the ministry. Then there was the question of the ordination of women to the priesthood. It was opposed on biblical and traditional grounds - until the mid-1980's. Churches change the way they interpret Scripture and Tradition.
Kato, I am sorry I cannot answer you question about paying to have sex with a man since I have never contemplated such a thing.
Lack of direction ?
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009

I am aware that the Church Of Uganda changes its positions all the time . I dont know whether this is the right or wrong to do , But I know that Gods word does not change . I suppose that there are many of me in your church , that is why they are leaving .

One day , the church will bless the profession of prostitution . Even Jesus refused to stone them .
You dive again !
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009

You always talk about things you have never " contempleted " upon . Do you have to have killed someone to have an opinion on murder ?
Are you saying that the bible only clears you to interpret homosexuality ? I think that your job is to guide your followers on all matters of sin . You must know that prositution is mentioned in the bibble , and that is illegal in those countries where consenting adults are free to do what they want with their bodies .
Rev. Kasibante point taken......but
written by Moses Luyinda, November 23, 2009
Rev. Kasibante, so I overlooked a minor detail; you and I know that those countries you mention as having attended Lambeth 2008; they contitute a very small fraction of africa. You yourself mention that the african bishops who attended 2008 were there to voice their uneasiness with the direction of the anglican church. Mr. Kato, thank you for your quotation of Orombi, the Archibishop of uganda; you somehow caught the Rev.. Unawares; Rev. Kasibante, we can not tell half-truths, These things are only a click away on the internet.!!!
Rev. Kasibante point taken......but pt.2
written by Moses Luyinda, November 23, 2009
Generally, and I am going to be very general; we live in an information age; Rev kasibante knows this, but somehow, assumes that uganda is Isolated; The homosexual debate is only relatively starting in uganda; in other countries its been going on for years; and it is these countries that we should learn from; lets not sleep lest our children are indoctrinated with the gay ideology, like is the case in some states in the US, Therefore I encourage people, whenever I can, not to be hoodwinked by the gay movement in uganda; it did not start in Uganda; therefore lets study where the movement has been; we might be in for a surprise if we think that the gay demands in Uganda are only about human rights!
The Word of God - Kato
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 23, 2009
Mr Juma Kato, you say that God's Word does not change. But our perception of it does. To add: God's Word is not an absolute or self-evidenced. It is always contested. You mention another tricky subject: prostitution. A very broad subject, you know? And much more complex than homosexuality. The church is not about to endorse or permit it, I don't think. One hopes, though, that it will be wise enough and spiritual enough to not demonise "the prostitute" or use them as a scapegoat for or to deflect attention away society's injustices - social, cultural, and economic . The Jesus you talk about refused to answer hypothetical questions. So, do I.
On prostitution, Kato
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 23, 2009
About the illegality of criminalisation of prostitution - correction: It is legalised in some countries and not legalised in others and that includes the countries you say people are free to do with their bodies as the please. In UK, prostitution is illegal, although those living here know the situation is more complex. In UK it is illegal, but the law does not criminalise sexual relations between two consenting adults, even if the church might regard it as sin.
Is everything complex ?
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009

I am getting used to Rev-Kasibantes spins . He is a so so Reverand who could make a good living as a bad politician.
If peoples perceptions over Jesus`s message , how can the Rev . think that the church he works for will not alter its position on prostitution ?
Bad spins
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009
Anything illegal is crimialized Rev . In UK , if one is caught committing prostitution , the defence of " we are adults who agreed " will not stand in court . You should probably say that, althouugh the trade is illegal , the police and the British public dont consider prostitution as a major hazard that must be stamped out by all means , which is the same that happens in Uganda when it comes to homosexuality
Pride Parade
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009
Rev. Kasibante , hopes that " the prostitute" will not be demonised . I wonder if he is willing to join them if they start their own Prositution Rights Movement . Will he attend their pride festivals ? Will the church make some of them priests ?
Why ?
written by Juma Kato, November 23, 2009
The church will is not about to endorse or permit prostitution , so says Rev. Kasibante . What happened to the question " who gets hurt when 2 consenting adults have sex " ? Finally , Kasibantes church has found some sexuality that it cannot change its position and move on !
This is clarity, not spin
written by Rev Amos Kasibante, November 24, 2009
Juma Kato, I am losing the train of your thought/writing. That people change their perceptions of Scripture or the Word of God is known by every one whose views are not entrenched. For example, the Bible was used to support slavery and the slave trade. The Bible was used to support racism. Recall that story of the accursed Ham whose descendants were destined to be hewers of wood and drawers of water being equated with Black people? Or the Adam-Eve story being used to subjugate women? Or the Creation story about subduing the earth being used to exploit rather than care for the environment? No Mr Kato I have no fixation about prostitution. Many - perhaps most of the prostitutes are victims of social and economic injustice.

Might be best now to round off this debate - that is between you and me. So if I do not respond you understand.
The debate goes on regardless
written by Juma Kato, November 24, 2009
Reverand ,if the bible was "used " to support slavery and racism , its the civil laws that ended slavery and institutionalised racism . Uganda , as a nation , does not makes its laws according to what the bible says . Our laws are made to match our own perceptions of what is right or wrong for us .Look at the tittle one more time : Mwenda is telling Bahati not to ursurb Gods power . The implication is that its Gods word , not Bahati`s that should be final .Now , if your reasoning is that all of us have the right to change our perceptions , Mwenda and you should live God out of this .

I will understand if you dont respond .
Andrew is very right
written by Jim Wasswa, November 26, 2009
I support you wholly on this though am not gay, I live in Europe but I know of many other Ugandans living double lives, married at home but openly gay here, let this bill be sent back to the stupid MP, let gays live their lives, everyone has a right to do what they want, gays dont deserve deth, some are your children, bothers or fathers.....lol, we know that most anti-homo people do it in the dark,..., get real. Andrew has a point.
Museveni, Bahti and Nsaba Buturo
written by Mark, November 26, 2009
Let Andrew and all these pro-gay people go against some senators and congress men in the US government who are supporting Museveni, Bahti and Nsaba Buturo on this anti-gay bill.

Does Andrew Mwenda and all these pro-gay people have 13 billion dollars?
written by Mark, November 26, 2009
I see pro gays blowing air here, blah, blah, blah, they don't know they are hitting their heads against a wall with these tvery monied people who hold power, because in our world money means power, all those that are blah, blahing I bet you $100, you have less than $100,000 to your name while these congressman and senators have an organization worth $13 billion and they are supporting Museveni's,Bahti's and Nsaba Buturo's stance against homosexuality 200%

http://www.wbur.org/npr/120746516

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=120746516&m=120757394
No Place in Africa
written by momo, November 26, 2009
Wheather Andrew tries to equate the black strugle in America and the emancipation of the black race world over with homosexuality in Uganda or world over, the fact remains one, its a vice that has no place in African practice and in African Culture in general, and deserves to be rejected with utter contempt that it may deserve, despite the fact that Andrew is entitled to his own views as a panalist or analyst whatsoever.......

Roger that!!!
taboo
written by daniel, November 30, 2009
I would like to congratulate Mr. Bahati for taking up the mantle in the war against homosexuality. Mr Mwenda's attack on the conservative MP from kabale is with all due respect disgusting in the sense that it is coming from a Ugandan albeit a christian. mwenda's attack comes from an inferiority complex to appease his small international audience while selling the very values that make us african. This topic has always been a taboo in our cultures. we don't tolerate this no matter how learned we become our how travelled we are, this is a panaecia. Its true being gay is something you are born with and arises as a defect in one's DNA and therefore one can't avoid it, but we can still force the environmental factor to take precedence. Perhaps if we were more advanced mr. bahati could table the bill that forces doctors to abort any foetus carrying the gene. My only addition to the bill would be arresting the likes of andrew who use their platforms to advance this vice.
...
written by Kalmoh, December 09, 2009
Andrew: very intellectually woven ideas in defence of the gay community. However, if we are asked a question: - Would you like to live in a world where all men and women lived happily and long without sex by their opposites? If the answer is yes, then the human race as we know it extinct by the year 2150.

Andrew should also promote the rights of kleptomaniacs (compulsive stealing of objects unnecessary for personal use or monetary value) who may have a more popular following in Africa. Some studies have indicated biology as a factor in their behavior.

In addition, Andrew should also think about the rights of Cannibals (the act or practice of humans eating the flesh of other humans). As human rights advocate think about big blocks of society - not just a few.
@ kalmoh
written by yolorenz, December 10, 2009
Your arguments are truly laughable. The apostle Paul advocated singleness. If we all listened to that command, the human race would be extinct by the year 2150.

On the subject of innate kleptomania and cannibalism, the difference between homosexuality and these examples is that there is nothing about homosexuality that injures other people. I know you will likely respond by citing examples of coerced homosexual sex but you surely are not advocating for complete abstention from heterosexual activities because of coerced heterosexual sex. Coerced sex is always wrong, whether it is gay or straight, but that doesn't make homosexuality always wrong.
Ms
written by wakeUp, December 10, 2009
MP Bahati is right and should be supported.
I used to have a lot of respect for Mwenda and that rev Kasibante. Now I call him rev from doom. If I am a thief, I should be able to admit that it is morally worng to steal, but no thief sees that it is worng to steal someone else property, instead they recruit more followers. Society have to restrain the act by enforcing law to protect the rights of the victims. Homosexuality has been condemed by God as an abomination, unnatural which God said it should be punished by death, it destroys society morally (Leviticus 18:22).
WE NEED LOT'S THAT CAN BE SPARED FROM THE DOOM (& that's the bahati & buturo's )
written by LT.FOAT, December 18, 2009
, where are we heading to if we have started despising the bible in our country like what USA is doing , anation based on christianity but its now the one legalising the marriage of aman with afellow man .ihave lived with americans for along time i under stand their thinking & their way of living ,america has no culture is mixed up of asians , mexicans , chines , so forth & so on .
these are the ppl'e that have allowed their bishops , canons ,Rev's & pastors to serve publicly as homosexuals , right hand with the bible & on the left hand with aring of afellow man as apartener with the support of the president . the time has come & the prophesies will be fulfilied but we pray that God can save some people like Bahati as he did in the cities of sodom & gomorrah .
Andrew you are very wrong
written by Lesbo shiba, December 23, 2009
Dear Andrew..for sure you are very wrong Hon.Bahati dint say they should kill homos but those who rape the young ones under 18..and even knowingly they are hiv positive imagine your son being raped by a gay who is hiv positive smilies/sad.gif sometimes we need to think before we talk..now i can see we want Hon..Bahati to be hated but read his words ..that bill is for people who rape..even in the west few countries respect the gays even in Holland we have many cases where gays are being attacked..so go ugandasmilies/wink.gif

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